Your Kindness Is Why Your Team Doesn't Respect You

Sean Weisbrot: Christy Pretzinger is the owner and CEO of Writer girl, a company that helps hospitals and healthcare organizations write patient friendly website content. She's been doing this for 20 years and has over 30 employees. And the company is fully remote. I wanted to interview her because her conversation with me during the intro was all about kindness, and it was something that I had never really stopped to talk about with a guest before. And I thought it would be interesting to talk with her about being kind and being a business owner at the same time. And if it's possible for those two things to be possible, and if it's possible for those two things. To be able to work together in this conversation, we talked about kindness, we talked about love. We talked about building businesses and meditation and self-care and self-love, and it was a very deep conversation. So if you want to know more about how to build a culture that's full of kindness and love and compassion while still getting shit done, you're gonna love this. Kindness is something that I think a lot of people struggle with. I think that the thing they struggle the most with is not being kind to others, but not being kind to themselves. So if someone were struggling to be kind to themselves, what would you say to them?

Christy Pretzinger: That's a really good question. Um, I think most of us know, or at least have heard that the way we talk to ourselves. Uh, is something we would never, ever speak to anybody else that way most of the time, except I might have to put a caveat in there, except on social media now in the world in which we live, but it used to be that you would never speak to anyone else. The way that you know you're on self-talk is so unkind. Um, you know, as with so many things, kindness, especially to yourself, but as well as to other people, requires both intention and attention. Um, it's a, it's a practice. Uh, I, I, I think that living well, living a meaningful life is the same thing. It requires both intention and attention. And if you're spending a lot of time, which I think a lot of people are, sadly being unkind to yourself with your self-talk with, with just. Being in your head about all sorts of things, then you, it makes it really challenging to live a meaningful life because by definition you're kind of wrapped up in yourself. Um, and I think that most people who are very unkind to themselves would not think of themselves as, um, being, uh, what's the word? Not selfish, but, but just. Really self-focused, but in fact, you are very self-focused if you're being hateful to yourself. Um, so I've, I've, I've had many people that I've coached or mentored that I've worked with who, um. I struggle with that, and I've said to all of them, I, you would never ever be someone who would put yourself before others, and you don't think that that's what you're doing, but you really are doing that because you're spending so much time self-flagellating that you can't possibly be looking at the people that you are with, that you are trying to have a positive impact on. So sometimes maybe just turning it around that way and thinking, yeah, really my intention here is to be kind to other people or to, um, to help this person that I'm talking to or whatever the situation is, to not put myself first. If you really turn that around and realize, wow, I'm just focusing on me all the time, it kind of helps put a different spin on it and take your mind off of that a little bit. I found that to be helpful.

Sean Weisbrot: I. Have said this for a long time. Similar I think to love. I've encountered this a lot in Asia where a lot of people struggle with self-worth, and I've felt like if someone has grown up in a way where they've never really felt love from other someone else, like a parent, that it would be very difficult as an adult for them to express love. In a healthy way to a partner, and that if someone really wanted to be able to have an adult relationship with someone that was meaningful, purposeful, and something that could be sustained, they would have to first learn to love themselves. So I feel like being kind to yourself is kind of a step on the journey to self-love.

Christy Pretzinger: Absolutely. I don't think that you can love yourself without being kind to yourself. I mean, kindness is a, is a. Integral part of love in my experience. I mean, I'm not a psychologist. I don't have that training, but, um, but I would think that, uh, I, I don't know how you can love without being kind. Wouldn't you think that that love, I mean, that kindness is integral to love?

Sean Weisbrot: Sure. But. I think everyone has a way of expressing love. You know, there's, there's people that have a sociopath for a parent, and that parent thinks that they love that person and they think that they're expressing love, but the other person may hopefully realize that they're not actually receiving love, but they're receiving something else that's not good for them, but that the parent believes it's love. And even if they don't feel it's kind, the parent thinks what they're doing is right. Usually because they were indoctrinated to, to something and they're just, well, just

Christy Pretzinger: because they think it's love doesn't mean it's love. You know? I mean, I think that, I mean, uh, let me share my, you know, many years of therapy and we can leverage that with your audience. That, that learning the problem is in that situation, when you are raised, uh, by someone who thinks that criticism is love. That was my experience that, um, I had a parent who really thought that criticism was love only after lots of therapy did I realize that was the way my mother expressed love because of her own problems and like, not worth going into. But you know, it took kind of what you said. Um, and then what happens is that as you grow up, then you fall into patterns of relationships because it's like comfortable shoes. That's what you think love is. Then what happens is you have to either go to therapy or stay in bad relationships where criticism is love, or eventually you break down, you get to the point where this isn't working for me anymore. And then in my case, I had to figure out like, oh, I get it. You know? That's why I married someone who was terribly critical because I thought that felt like love to me. Took a while to unpack that one, but it didn't make it love. It just made it. Something that I thought was, so I think that to your point, um, all sorts of people can say all sorts of things are love. We know there's aberrant behavior. I mean, we don't even need to tap that. Um, but that, um, that, that is not actually love, uh, just because someone thinks it is.

Sean Weisbrot: I had a few relationships in Asia where I, I hate to even say this, I'm, it's not even a, a brag, it's, it just feels horrible. Um. I was the first person in their life that ever showed them mm-hmm. Kindness and love and they didn't understand it. Mm-hmm. And they didn't know what to do with it, but they knew that. Mm-hmm. They wanted to be around me. Mm-hmm. But it was unhealthy for me because they didn't know how to give it back.

Christy Pretzinger: Yeah. I think, um, that's sad. That's really sad. Um, but good for you, obviously, that you knew. That, you know, you weren't codependent and you didn't just stay in that because you were gonna make sure you helped them. And, uh, and to our point here, loved yourself, were kind to yourself and recognize that, you know, that that way lies trouble for you. Um, I don't think a lot of people know that. You know, a lot of people would probably in, in your. Um, experience that you just referenced would feel good about themselves staying there as opposed to recognizing that it's not good for them. You know, that's that, um, kind of self-sacrificing thing, but it also really is codependent, like, I'll take care of you at the expense of me. And then, as we all know, that leads to resentment and all sorts of bad, passive aggressive behavior and all sorts of things that nobody really wants in their life.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why my marriage broke down as well. Because similarly, like they, these three women were all, they were great women. I had a good life with them. I enjoyed my time with them, but they were aspects of their personalities, which made it difficult to imagine giving them like the ability to raise my kids. You know? It's like, do I wanna share that with them? Do I feel like they're going to give our kids or my kids like what they need? Like, I don't know. That was a bit scary for me. Um, I was obviously really young with the first one. The second one I was considering marriage. The third one I actually married. And, uh, yeah, they all ended

Christy Pretzinger: in the same, well, you know, I, I mean, I, I can do for recognizing that, um, certainly at a younger age than I ever did. I mean, I got married old enough that I shouldn't have known better, but I really didn't. And, um, and then had a child with someone who. Was incapable of truly loving another person, much like my mom had been. Um, and I really, you know, again, with time, and I always joke, my mom's been gone for a long time. I always say I've had so many wonderful conversations with her since she died. That's the only way we were able to do it. But it, um, you know, looking at. Um, my son, I ended up really pretty much raising him alone. I divorced when he was 11, I think it was 11 or 12. And fortunately he had somehow the strength of character at a very young age to decide not to see his dad anymore. And he didn't, I didn't even know he was gonna do that. He just cut him off when he was 16 and then ended up, uh, changing his name to my last name and really just. Was it, as far as he was concerned, which served him very well, and, and somehow he recognized that, I don't know if he would articulate it that way. He's 22 now, so I'm not really sure. I, I think what happens is that he processed a certain way at 12, another way at 16, another way at 18. And now, and you know, you continue to process that as you go through. And I had. Had him in therapy when he was young for all sorts of things that, um, situations, things that happened. His uncle drowned right in front of him. That was a big deal. So I was like, we're gonna get you in a little bit of therapy and let you know from a young age that this is okay to go talk to people. So that, that he understood that, that that's kind of baked into who he is. So he knows that. That he can talk to someone about things. So I think he'll continue to process that. And when I hear some of the things he says, and, and you obviously younger than me, I'm encouraged that there are people who have self-awareness that, um, at a younger age aren't making the mistakes I did. You know, just kind of bumbling through and thinking, well, this is what it is and I have to stay here. And fortunately, I. I had a good friend who gave me the name of a therapist and I got out. Um, I don't know that I would have without that, but you know, you were able to do that. I think that's commendable.

Sean Weisbrot: I think the only reason I've been able to understand these things is because my parents were like quite emotionally intelligent and were able to teach that to me from a really young age. I mean, like there is this one thing that really sticks out for me. Uh. That I think about often, which was when they like brought me to bed every night. They would just say, look, whatever you wanna say, say it. I'm not gonna say anything. Not gonna judge you. Just whatever you feel like you need to say, I'm here, I'm listening. And that taught me that it was okay to tell people the truth. Even like the mm-hmm. The deeper truth that most people hide from other people and mm-hmm. I call it blunt honesty, and people, when they meet me, like I have no filter in that regard. Maybe that's not a great thing, but I will be bluntly honest with people I don't know. And some people really like it and some people don't like it. So people know very quickly if they like me or not, and that serves me well because if someone's not gonna like me, I wanna know that they're not gonna like me, so I don't waste my time on it. So. Um, I actually had this conversation with someone the other day. He introduced me to a potential client and admittedly his introduction wasn't the best and so I had to like say a few extra things to kind of move it forward, but they, they misinterpreted my introduction and they're also from a different culture, and so I think there was a cultural difference that they were making an assumption about why I was introduced to them. So they got defensive and didn't want to talk about it. And then I was like, all right, well, fair enough. And then the guy came back to me privately and said that like, uh, that I was aggressive with them. And I was like, look, I, I, I can't make everyone happy, so I'm just gonna say screw it. And he is like, there's, he's like, there's two p two kinds of people. One that like you and want you to succeed and some that don't like you and don't really care. He's like, look like I like you and I want you to succeed and that's why I introduce you to these guys 'cause they're a potential client for you. He's like at the same time, like, I don't know how to make it better so that the introduction's better or that you have a better time with them. But like, it's not the first time I've heard someone, 'cause we live in the same city and it's not a very large city. He's like, this is like the second or third time I've heard someone say to me that you're aggressive or intense. And I'm like, I don't know who those people would be. 'cause I don't really know many people in the city. Mm-hmm. The people I do know, they seem to like me. But if that's the case, then that's their perception and you know, fine. Right. I don't care what they think about me. Because there's so many other people that do like me and do wanna work with me and do want to be around me, and I'll, I focus my energy on them.

Christy Pretzinger: Yeah. No, and that's why you like you. It's interesting to me. Um, I mean, somebody like you piques my curiosity when I first meet you. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. But it's not, I mean, I don't really form an opinion like that about whether or not I like someone. Um, I'm. Somewhere it piques my curiosity, you know, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Like what's this person's experience that's different than mine? Um, and, and then let's see where it goes. You bring to my, a situation once where, um, my son and I were on a, um, a little small, really small cruise in Alaska. And there was no wifi or anything, so you really got to meet these other, there were like 50 other, you know, guests on it. And so we met, um, this couple from New York and, um, he was, uh, like the owner, the CEO, of like a multi-billion dollar. I. Company and I really liked him. I thought he was really interesting and I really liked his wife and, um, and my son liked him. We got, we ended up eating dinner with him all the time and talking to them, and he was this kind of bigger guy and he was kind of gruff, which I just found funny because I thought he's actually a very soft person, but he had this persona of this guy. And I said something about, yeah, you're really like, kind of something like, I, I don't remember what I said. I would never have called him a teddy bear. That's dismissive. But it was like your, your softer, your, your gruff exterior hides your. Your kind heart. And he was like, he looked at me, he's like, nobody ever thinks that about me. And I'm like, well, I'm not on the other side of a negotiating table with you either here. You know what I mean? We're, we're not in this situation there. But it made me curious and it was interesting to, to see that. And then he kind of, I think he felt like he could just let his guard down and just be himself this nice guy who, you know, um, probably for many reasons had. To have that exterior given what he did, uh, for a living and all of that kind of thing. But it was, it was interesting to me because I think he did that on purpose to keep people at a distance, you know? And, um, I just, I found him very interesting and piqued my curiosity and we became friends.

Sean Weisbrot: That's interesting. I've, I've seen people do that before and some people have said that that's what I do not push people away, but that. I have this kind of aura of like toughness, but then when you get to know me, you realize I'm actually like very mm-hmm. Uh, soft inside. And I'm like, I'm not hiding it. Like I know the kind of person I am and I know that, that, I guess the, it goes back to love and kindness because the way I see it is like life is so short and. People have so many regrets at the end of their life, and I don't wanna have regrets when I'm dying, if I am lucky enough to be aware that I'm dying and be able to reflect. And so I would rather live my life being nice to people because everybody says, why don't you just be nice to me? You know, people say, oh, people have a hard time. You know, you don't know what people are going through. You just be kind to them. Everyone says be kind, love like everyone. There's so many people that say, uh, especially after they've been on a psychedelic trip, which is another conversation if you want to go into, we can, and they say, what I see in my experience is that the entire purpose for living, I. And the universe is just love, like they, everything goes back to love. Love is the universal constant, I guess. And what's the point in hurting people? What's the point in doing things that are vicious or negative or hurtful? There's just no reason for it unless you, you are wired to like that. In which case, I'm sorry, you're a psychopath or a sociopath. Depending on the severity or the degree to which you enjoy it or, or the actions you take against others. And so, yeah, I'm a soft person. I, I'm a person that loves, I cry in movies. Like I cry when I think about missing my family or missing, uh, you know, like. Thinking about when they're gonna die. You know, most people don't sit sit around and think about this stuff, but like, yeah, I'm a soft person who cares about people. Like,

Christy Pretzinger: you know, I, I, I'll take

Sean Weisbrot: it. I don't care. You know, I don't, something you said brought

Christy Pretzinger: to mind. Um, something that I don't, you know, so much of this is, is, um, things that I did a lot of personal work on many years ago. So now it's kind of hardwired into me, so I tend to forget. About the fact that I did this work to get to where I am. But something that you said brought to mind, um, thinking about love. And one of the things that, um, that I said when I was long time ago, when I was more busy building my business, I had had some spectacular failures. I mean, just really big ones. And what was great about that is that it really kind of broke down my ego. It made me realize like I could probably use some wise counselors because I could run this off the rails pretty easily. And so, um, you know, I think I swung too far the other way. Maybe had so much self-doubt, you know, but I swung back. It's fine. It took some time. But in any case, breaking down that ego for me was really what allowed me to build a business based on kindness. Um, I had to work a lot on the kindness to myself, to your point, but. I also came to believe, and this is just my own experience, is that to your point, love is all that there is. And if you have this big ego, or really probably a fragile ego would be more appropriate, then you are really tied to this, this world and this place and this stuff, and in this world, you know? Love is not the only thing. It's like all evidence to the contrary. It's money, it's power, it's position. Right? But I look at this and like sometimes I think about that, um, you know, the, the, is it the Hubble telescope? Whichever one it is, that latest one that shows the pictures. And every one of those little things is, is an actual galaxy, right? And you look at it and you're like, okay, I get it. Like we're actually, I didn't. Just the teeniest little speck of anything and time is a blink of an eye. And if, if, if I can have that bigger perspective and, and not be focused on my ego and not be focused on what I have or, or what I look like or my belongings or things like that. That I really can get to what matters, which is love. That's the only thing that lasts. Everything else just passes. Right? And, um, and I believe that we, I'm, I'm not a, a religious one of that, the classic, I'm spiritual but not religious and really not even all that spiritual. It's really more, um, I just think we're part of something bigger that we are, you know, we are made of stardust, right. I mean that it's, it's miraculous that we are made of the same thing that stars are made of. And I think that's the meaning of ashes to ashes dusted dust. We go back to that and that, that, um, in my personal philosophy, that our consciousness in some level survives. But the only part of that that survives is the love

Sean Weisbrot: and only as long as there's someone alive to, yeah. Yeah.

Christy Pretzinger: You know, um, another thing, when I think about what, um, what makes me tear up, there's many things, um, but. I think I shared with you talking about like, um, my business and someone asking me that repeating question about what would be a failure if I sold it. And I don't, I don't have an intention to sell it at this point, but that I said if, if I sold it and walked away with bags of money and the culture that I worked so hard on, which was creating an environment where people can thrive, where every single one of them knows that they matter, that the special magic they bring would be missed if they left, if that. Disappeared. It would be the biggest failure of my life other than really derailing my son's life. And when I think about the privilege of leading a group of people, um, that makes me tear up because I think it's, it's a really rich privilege to get to do that, to feed into people's lives in a way that that truly makes a difference in. In their, see, it makes me tear up now in their actual lives, in the joy that they feel in the work, that they do that, that they feel that it's meaningful, that their children see them do meaningful work and that they are enriched by that. What could be a bigger privilege than that?

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah.

Christy Pretzinger: Well, maybe that, that is truly the best. I mean, really I, I love that

Sean Weisbrot: I grew up watching my dad be what some people might call weak. Towards his employees, where others might call it kindness. What I saw from that was he cared about the people he worked with and he wanted them to do a good job, but they took advantage. So I, I became an adult and. Worked with other people and managed people and hired people and partnered with people and did all sorts of business with the goal of never being allowed to take advantage while always allowing myself to trust. At the same time, I feel like this empathy towards other people has potentially allowed them to take advantage of me by going slower than they should on tasks. On getting something done. How can someone balance getting shit done and being kind to people that are responsible for, well, that's a dance.

Christy Pretzinger: I'll tell you, that's something that, um, that I think I shared with you. Uh, the values of my organization are, we are empowered, curious, kind, and fun. And if we have, um. A, a weakness, I would say it is an a tendency to slip into codependency, which then can become all the things we just talked about. Um, because we tend to. Overtake care of one another. And then that can lead to problems and that can also lead to people taking advantage. Um, over time, I've had to, and I'm the one who started the codependency by the way, 'cause I need everyone to be Okay. So that's, you know, it all starts with me. But, um, realizing I've, I've said many times that. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness because I do have a fiduciary responsibility to the organization because it's much more than just me or one other per, you know what I mean? It's a group of people. I mean, it's not huge. It's 30 people and then a bunch of contractors, but it's enough that I, you know, they live their lives depending on it. I have to take care of it. So I have to watch that. But I will tell you, um, I don't, in the, the years I've been doing this, which is 20 years, um, I think I can count on one hand the number of people who have left. I think we've only let two people go. I think. Um, and one person, it was sloppy work and I felt like she could have been on the edge of taking advantage, but she never really did. 'cause we have unlimited time off, you know, all the things we work virtually. It would be very easy for someone to. To take advantage. Um, but what I've experienced in, in my little world is that by casting the vision for the culture, which is what I do, and then the people live it out, is that they're protective of it because they really enjoy working here. They enjoy the freedoms that they have, and they don't take advantage of it because they really don't want it to go away. Um, I, I, I frequently say that really the only person who reports to me is my COO and I say to her, we're talking about different challenges, whatever. And I'm like, I know that there is no one sitting around drumming their fingers looking for something to do, even if their billable time isn't up there. They're constantly saying. What can I help with? What can I help with? Everything is stalled for me, so I can't, I can't do this billable work, but I'm sitting here, what can I do? What can I do? So I, I have not experienced that. And sometimes people will say like, well, if you're all virtual, how do you know that people are working? And I say, well, if you are concerned about people working, you have a hiring problem. That's the problem. You know, because no one is hired that we don't trust and we, we have a lot of checks and balances. Now, when it was just me, I would interview people and kind of. Kind of gauge the, the EQ by just like the way they would talk to me and the, the, um, nonverbal communication, the smiling and not, you know, kind of seeing like, what's that? Like, how do they fit? And now people, um, better than me take that on. And we, we don't run into that a lot. So we have a really, really good hiring, uh, filter that we go through to avoid that. Um, and I don't, we don't really have a lot of difficult clients. We did have one. So I'm trying to get back to answer, like, how do you balance that? Um, I think, again, not mistaking kindness for weakness. We had a client that, um, that didn't know me because it was working with someone else and, and, uh, working with one of our project managers. And I always say, if you don't, if this pro, if you don't get along with this project manager, it's all you, not her. Because no one will work harder than her to find something about you that she likes. You know what I mean? She's like just really an accommodating person. And this client was very unkind to her. And, um, you know, she didn't wanna tell me about it. And it came up the chain to me and I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. So I called the client and, um. It wasn't the actual person that was causing the problem. I called her boss and we were talking, she was kinda like, oh, okay, well, you know, going forward. And I said, no, no, there is no going forward. Um, you know, we, our values are empowered, curious, kind, and fun, and none of those things are happening here on your side or our side. You know, it, it's not, we can't delight you. And so I think that, that this is just better. And she freaked out and was like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do? And ended up talking to her employee that was causing the problem. And then my employee said, well, they still have all those problems. They're just not taking it out on me anymore. And I was like. That's all we can ask for, you know, just stop taking it out on me. You know, I've got nothing to do with your sandbox issues. So, so I think drawing a line in the sand and recognizing it is, um, is important. And I always say that, that those values, I. Whether they're your personal values, your company values, whatever they are, having your own true North. And I always say that it's a thread that goes through everything and then all of your decisions can hang upon that thread. So the, the expression of those values, whatever your own values might be, can change over time as you mature, as you grow and change. But the values themselves. In Violet, they stay the same. And, and then you can make your decisions based on that. You know, am I demonstrating empowerment? Am I demonstrating kindness? Am I having fun or being fun? Am I curious here about what's actually going on? Um, and then it kind of helps move you forward. So did that answer your question in a meandering way? Sure.

Sean Weisbrot: It's, it, it's, it's your answer. That's what you gave. That's what matters. That's what you felt when. I was doing my software company. The things that were most important for me for the culture were transparency and clear communication, especially because we were a team of 17 and we were from like eight or nine different countries, and so all of us had different languages that were native to us, and yet. Myself and my COL were American, and so we tried to understand everyone's culture. While making it clear that we wanted to run things the way an American company would run them, and the team liked that because, for example, there was a guy from the Pakistan, uh, our web web developer was from Pakistan, and I. I made it a point to do like a quarterly call with each of the employees, an hour. Here's my calendar, book a call, let's just have a chat. And some of them thought it was like a performance review, and I'm like, Nope, that's for your manager to do. I just want to get to know you as a human. And so this guy, he's like, I worked for another company before this for three years. I didn't even know the CEO's name. So the fact that you're like talking to me on a video call at my convenience for an hour or more blows me away. Um. Some of the people from the Philippines we had hired were used to two to four hour commutes daily, and we gave them the freedom to work from home and we told people work. At the time that fits you. If you've got a kid and your kid's sick and you gotta take him to the doctor, go take care of your kid. Because if you try to work, you're not gonna be focused on the work. Mm-hmm. You're gonna be focused on your kid. So go do the thing that matters ne first, get rid of that worry, and then go and do your work as long as it doesn't interfere with anybody else's work. Right, as long as you're available, when there's meeting, you know, if there's a meeting scheduled, be at the meeting, you know, those kinds of things. And they thought that it was incredible because they weren't used to being treated like that. From their other companies. And I was like, it's just a simple kindness that I would expect someone to do for me if I was their employee, but for which I never felt from any of my previous employment. Uh, you know, so I said, when I'm gonna have my company where I have employees, this is important for me. Fully digital company work from wherever you are. Work whenever you want, as long as you get the stuff done that you promised to do in a timeframe that's relatively fair, just do it. And. For me, that was good enough. And maybe that kindness was, you know, taken advantage of possibly. I'm not quite sure and I'm not really the right person to, to judge that. But, uh, that was what worked for us. And so one of the things that I did with, uh, the hiring process was I, we, I, I looked for people or I tried to filter out people who didn't know how to read. Like follow instructions. And I know when you're a startup, you want people that can read outside the lines and make great decisions and, and all of that. But like bottom line is if we're trying to hire for a position and there's 500 applicants, the ones that don't know how to follow instructions are not gonna be the ones that I'm gonna wanna work with. Even if they have or don't have the ability to think outside of the box and do what's right. And so that's, that was like, um. The thing for me that we, we focused on heavily throughout the hiring process and we put, we went to, uh, like very, I, I don't know how to say the word. We went to extreme lengths to, to input that into, uh, the entire process for every position. And part of the process was me getting involved with the process where. I wanted to be the first person that everyone saw because I wanted to tell them, who am I? Why? You know, why do I want you to come work with us? What are we doing? Why are we doing it, and how you're going to fit into that. I wanted to give them clarity over their situation so that they could make a decision about if it was the place they wanted to work at. At the same time, I expected them to have done some research about us and, and be able to ask questions, and if they didn't have that curiosity and they weren't willing to know more about us or learn specific things, like if you're a developer, if you're not asking about the tech stack, if you're not asking about, you know, what's, what's, what are you currently developing, right. Then like, I know you don't care. You just want money. Like I get it. You know, at the end of the day people just want a salary. Fine, you need to feed your family. I get it. But my hope is that you care about what you're doing. I want you to be interested in, in what we're doing. I want you to be excited about it. I can't expect it, but I can hope to find someone that's interested in it. So there was specific characteristics we look

Christy Pretzinger: for. It's fine if people just want money, but maybe they're just not a fit for you, and that's okay. You know, I mean, that's fine. It's, um, I always say that I've, I've never done anything for money as my driver. I know that it comes like that old thing, you know, do what you love, the money will come. It's like, yeah, whatever. But it's, it's, it's really more about, I'm always reaching for a feeling. Mm-hmm. And to your point, if, um. If someone, um, like to build on what you were saying isn't curious about your organization, well that's fine. They don't have to be, maybe they just aren't a fit for you. That means you just need to go somewhere else because everything you're saying is just being a a, a good human right, is like actually caring about, um, the livelihood, the, the, the, the life that you're feeding into and the impact that you're going to have on each other's lives. Hopefully, um. It's funny 'cause um, I was just, some people were saying that, that they were, they were getting some feedback from people that, uh, they didn't know what, what the vision was for the year for our organization. And I'm like, okay, what does that mean? Like, I don't even know what that means. Like, I'm thinking, you know, there's a lot of corporations, like this is our year of excellence, whatever. It's like, I'm, I'm totally not like that. I've never really had a, um, like a goal or a vision like that. I mean, I, I, I say my vision. Is to continue to build this environment where people can thrive, where you can do meaningful work. And when I say meaningful work, I mean building relationships with our vendors, with the people that you work with, with your coworkers, with your clients, and helping them build relationships with their customers. That's like what meaningful work is to me. It's not the work product, it's the feeling that you get that makes something meaningful. And yes, you do excellent work that your output, the tasks that you perform are, are. Well done and, um, and you're proud of them. But that's always my vision is to keep that going and, um, and grow it in a way that, um, that allows people to continue to grow both personally and professionally in whatever manner they would like to do that I. To the best of our ability. Um, so, and again, it, it's really all about being human. I, I think that enriching this life, you know, we said once before, the unexamined life is not worth living, right? I mean, it's, it's like, how can I encourage people to have a bit of curiosity about their own inner life and about their, their life and why they're here and what they're doing, you know? And, and so if I can create an environment. That allows that and not only allows it, but encourages it, give, gives opportunity for it, then that feels good to me. Um, and the work product I. I'm proud of. We do great. That's good. Um, but that's not really my why. I mean, I always said if I could have cleaned houses and been in charge of my own destiny, I probably would've done it. It just so happened that I was able to do this other thing. So I did. Um, but, but that's not the thing. It was always building a business based on kindness. 'cause like you said, I didn't feel like I had been treated kindly or other people that I knew had necessarily been treated very kindly in. Other organizations, even if the owners of those, I never worked in big, huge corporations, but even if those owners, they weren't necessarily bad people. I just think that, that sometimes it's really easy to get to a place where you're just looking at the bottom line, and I'm a bottom line thinker. I look at the bottom line. But, um, I look at, I think I mentioned this to you, that, um. In a conversation with some other business owner, friends of mine we were talking about, uh, they have had successful exits and, and done very well for themselves financially. And I said, you know, I don't really look at my business through the lens of a balance sheet. I mean, of course I look at a balance sheet, but I look at it through the lens of a cultural balance sheet. And then I was like, oh. You go, that's something that's gonna be the title of a book. So I'm like working on that because I think that that cultural balance sheet, there are so many things that are hidden on a financial balance sheet, but that are very transparent on a cultural balance sheet, and they translate to a better bottom line now. Granted, I could probably have more ebitda, more debt income, all these kind of things if I was focused solely on that. But I'm the only owner I, I get to determine what that needs to be and how much is enough. I mean, I don't need more shoes, you know, it's like how many, how many people can I feed into? That's more important to me. And as long as we're all profitable, we can keep giving people raises and paying people well, and I can live the life that I would like to live and, um, and do meaningful work. I'm good. You know, I'm good. And so I continue to look at that. That's, that's the thing for me is looking at that cultural balance sheet when I'm walking, talking with my leadership team about all the, our tech stack. I'm not a tech person, but our tech stack and all the different things that we're doing that are, you know, challenging. It's challenging when you are a relationship business, but you have to have platforms and things to work with. And my question always comes back to how is it affecting people? Is it affecting the joy that they have in their jobs? Have we have, we come up with a. Tech solution for a relationship company, do we need to pull some of that back because people are feeling more like widgets instead of actually doing the relational things that they enjoy doing, which is, you know, supposed to be baked into their job. That's always my main concern that I come back to that and say, what, how is this having an impact on the actual people and the culture, uh, that we all swim in every day.

Sean Weisbrot: So you had mentioned. Thinking about how to get your team members to think more about what's going on inside. If you haven't done this before, I have not, but I know people that have and and rave about it. You might wanna consider a silent meditation retreat as a bonding experience for your team. There's like three day, seven day and 10 day ones. Obviously 10 day is probably too much for the team. But basically you're silent the entire time. There's, in most of them there's no internet and there's no technology pretty much. You just meditate and like eat and sleep and walk around. And I think that would be an incredible experience for a company where there's several days where everyone is forced to be together. Mm-hmm. And they're not allowed to say anything. I wonder how people would communicate if they can't use words. Yeah.

Christy Pretzinger: I went, um, are you familiar with the Omega Institute in upstate New York? Um, in the, no, probably sixties and seventies. It was actually started as commune and then, uh, it's now turned into, um, like. I know it's turned into like a spiritual retreat center in like Eckhart and other, there's all sorts of silent retreats and everything up there. So I went to a seven day Eckhart toe retreat up there a long time ago. Uh, some people did it silent. I did not do it silent, but there were people doing it silent. And I got there. And you know, with Eckhart, you just sit in a room silent with this. Brilliant spiritual master and you, you just sit there for four or five hours at a time. And the first time I'm just like, is this, you know, I was like looking at my watch practically, right? And um, that evening I was back in, in my room. I. And I was thinking, what, this is dumb. I can't believe I'm gonna be here for seven days. And then my other part of myself was like, oh, what's more important? Should you be checking email right now? Maybe? I was like, no, maybe this is what you should be doing. And it was, um, it was the only time in my life sitting there silent in the presence of. Just, I don't know what you call it, all it is, whatever, in a group of maybe, I don't know, maybe there are probably maybe 300 people there if that. I don't know. And, uh, that just sitting there, that I actually felt my body effervesce and it was like, it, like started at my feet and it felt like, like there was like just effervescence moving up throughout my body. I've never felt it since. I never felt it before. And it was really amazing that kind of to your point, that silence of just getting inside yourself. Um, when, when people first joined, uh, our organization. They're kind of shocked because every meeting that is more, that is three people or more starts with a meditation. And, uh, it can be, when it first started, we, we had different meditations we use now. Usually they'll rotate it within the group and say, okay, it's your, it's up to you to get the meditation for, you know, this meeting. So it just becomes kind of a thing, um, that we do. And. It helps us be present to that meeting. 'cause you know, you run into a meeting, whether it's virtual or or in person and you know, you're doing other things. You just rechecking an email, you're on your phone, you're doing stuff. So when you stop everything and, you know, turn everything off and everybody turns off their camera and only one person has the meditation going and, um, and it just helps you be present in that space. The people. And usually it ends with, you know, when you're ready, open your eyes, look around the room and you know, and situate yourself. And now look at the other people and kind of, you know, be present with the other people. And I find that to be, um. Very helpful. I mean, it's tremendously helpful. I don't, I don't know how, I mean, I think a silent retreat would be amazing. We have not done that. We have done, we use something called the Enneagram. There's a million different personality typing things out there. But we use the Enneagram and um, the thing that I like about the Enneagram is that it's not about behavior, it's about motivation. For behavior. So it, it forces you to look a little bit underneath because many of these types, there's only nine types. They can look very similar in behavior, but the Y is very, very different. And so we've done full day. Um, retreats basically because it's kind of a, um, deeper work, uh, on the Enneagram so that that allows all of us to be together to recognize, um, why someone that you work with may behave in the way that they do, as opposed to looking at the behavior, which then allows there to be empathy for. The way someone is behaving and also helps you get a little outside of yourself. Instead of looking at everything from your own perspective, you're able to say, oh, oh. And then I always call it radical empathy. Oh, oh, I get it now. That's okay. So now I don't have to be so defensive or I don't have to be angry or irritated. I can be like, okay, okay, now how do I, how do I respond to that?

Sean Weisbrot: I like the idea of having a meditation at the beginning of a meeting so that you force people to kind of slow down so that they can take the time to process what they had just gone through so that then they can. Be clear minded about what's about to happen. 'cause a lot of people I know, they're like, oh, I'm in a meeting now. I'm gonna be in a meeting. And like, to be fair, I have six calls today, but the, the only time of the day when I feel really peaceful is when I'm doing an interview because everything else is off.

Christy Pretzinger: Mm-hmm.

Sean Weisbrot: It's just me and you. That's all there is Where. If I'm on the phone with someone, I might get a message from someone else and I may look at it. I'm still listening to you. I'm still there with you. Not kind of, but I'm not like, like we can say something, we can get something done. Mm-hmm. But it's like split brain and that's just not healthy. So with that in mind, what's the most important thing you've learned in life so far?

Christy Pretzinger: Well, I'm old, so I have to really think about that. I have a lot of life to think about. Um. The most important thing that I've learned and that I would share and that I share with my son and with anyone that I work with, is that we are part of something so much bigger than whatever it is you're going through at the moment. And I guess maybe that's perspective in some way that really. Like I said, getting, getting a look at that picture of the satellite picture that shows every little.is a galaxy and that we're just a speck in that. And not to dismiss the importance of the now. I think that the now is, is all there is and it's, it's tremendously important and uh, and you have a choice about how you're going to. Experience that now, uh, and giving yourself some perspective on that helps you kind of, it almost like lets you drop your shoulders a little bit and be like, okay. Okay.