Our Stock Went From $200 to $3. The IPO Lesson That Cost Us Millions.

Sean Weisbrot: Sherry Shannon Vanstone is the founder, president, and CEO of Profound Impact Corporation, a Canadian data analytics company that leverages AI and machine learning to provide solutions for higher education and research sectors. She started her career as a cryptographer for the NSA, then built up sales channels across Asia for a private company before joining the team that created the cryptographic algorithm that powered the Blackberry and was ultimately acquired by Research in motion. I. And she's been part of two acquisitions and two IPOs in her life. Today. She spends her additional time building up women in STEM and startups, and you'll hear about all of this in our interview. I chose to interview Sheri because I don't often get to come across women like her that are really strong and capable and have a storied career in entrepreneurship, and especially in mathematics. So I love talking with her. She was really interesting and very giving, and I hope you enjoy what we talked about, which is what it was like being a woman in stem, especially in the 1980s and nineties, the algorithm that was sold. Uh, there's a documentary that came out about Blackberry, so we talked a little bit about the founders and what, uh, you know, whether the documentary was truthful about who they were. Uh, we talked about the IPOs and acquisitions and what she's learned from them, and, uh, women funding women, she's getting really involved in that because she realized that there are just not enough women that are getting funded and there's a lot of women with a lot of money that are capable of funding them. And so she's in the middle. Trying to help women learn how to become angel investors. And lastly, what was the most important thing that she's learned from life so far? So I know you'll enjoy Sherry. She's very interesting. Let's get to the show. You've had a long career, and from what I understand, it's been mostly positive. I'm curious to know what got you into this industry, into engineering. You know, people call this stem, right? What, what got you into a STEM career to begin with? Was it someone in your family that excited you? Was it a teacher, a mentor?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: I would say all of those in particular, when I was around seven or eight, my father started taking it. Uh, international correspondence course. He was an, uh, operating engineer. He wanted to become an electrical engineer. So this was not an online course. It was before then. It was a paper. It got you received a, a booklet. You worked through it, then you sent it back in the mail. It was graded. They sent you back the results, plus another booklet. So I started working through those booklets, uh, with my father and a lot of it was math. So, um, this is probably second grade I was in, uh, I grew up in Ohio and uh, so by fifth grade they do these international standardized tests and I scored 10th grade. In math at that time. And one of my, my teachers shared that information with me, which of just encouraged me. And then when I went to junior high and high school, I had all women math teachers, which was unusual and they all encouraged me to continue to study in mathematics. And that was, uh, what happened all the way up to university. I started into university and I said, oh, what am I gonna do with mathematics? I'll be, I'll be an accountant. So I start studying accounting at the University of Miami, Miami of Ohio. And I was interviewing, for some reason, I also thought I could be a journalist. I was interviewing the president of the university, maybe like the second week of, of the university, and he asked me what I was studying after I, we finished our interview and I told him, and he asked me what my scores were on my a CT. And I told him, he goes, uh, no, you gotta be in mathematics. So he changed all my courses to, from accounting to mathematics. And I, I didn't mind him doing that. In fact, I, it, it, uh, led me to where I am today. So not only, you know, those individuals, but other individuals along the way encouraged me to continue studying at, in mathematics and get a degree, a master's degree. And then I went and worked for the National Security Agency as a crypto logic mathematician, making codes and breaking codes. That means encryption, confidentiality, security, that area.

Sean Weisbrot: What was the hardest thing about working in that kind of a field? In those days, especially for the government, I,

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: the government was very good and very, uh, equitable and, and quite diverse. It was, it was earlier when I was deciding what to go to graduate school. One of my professors, my undergrad just flat out told me I shouldn't go. Uh. He said, you're only going to find a husband, leave the space for a man. Um, uh, but I didn't, you know, I didn't tune into that frequency. I, you know, yeah. You have your opinion. I ignored it. So really wasn't, um, uh, you know, very, a lot of people tried to remove barriers instead of cept barriers, and so I really had a great career with very few. Huge barriers. Uh, when I finally, I was in this office at, with the, with the US government, and I love this office. It was turned out to be my last office with them, the, the assignment. And I walked in one day and I heard the group of men, I worked with all men and they said if she can handle the heat, she's better get out of the kitchen. Now, and of course I knew they were talking about me, but you know what? I decided I'm not gonna fight that battle. That's not, not gonna choose. I didn't even ask them what they were talking about. I went on, I did my job. I was the first to volunteer for all the new and exciting assignments and uh, I had a great, uh, a career there. So it was because I didn't. I didn't take the minor things and make them major things, I just let that go and say, this is not a battle that I fight. But ear, uh, after that, my immediate boss, he was a little bit, well, not a little bit, he was volatile at times and he liked to yell at people and, uh, he did that to some of the admin staff on a regular basis. But when he did it to me one day. I stopped him and I said, you don't talk to me like that. Don't ever talk to me like that again. He backed out and he never did. So choosing your battles along the way, whether you're a male or female, is very, very important. But in particular, I think females, we need to make sure that we choose the right battles to fight. So what

Sean Weisbrot: do you think would've happened if you. Had fought more often, especially when you heard them making those comments to you or in, in around you.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: I think they would've felt that I was, uh, a little bit too sensitive, which I can be. Uh uh, so I didn't really know what the conversation was about to dig down into it. I could have talked to my boss later about it, but I thought it was best that, to me it was. They were talking about me, I must be doing something right or wrong. Right? But at least I have their attention, right? So, uh, I just made the decision that it wasn't, that it, it hurt me, but of course, you know, let that go. Um, but it didn't hurt that deeply. So I decided, again, I don't know where, uh, where I got that filter from, but I, I've been very. Strong, um, in standing up for certain things and then not compromising, but saying, you know, this is not the battle I wanna fight. Um, this is, uh, it's small. It, it's, there's, there are many occasions that this happened, but I just let it just bounce off on me. Uh. So, yeah, I don't, I don't know where that comes from. I think it's just trying to figure out what are your priorities? How do you move forward? You don't wanna be a crybaby, but you don't wanna be insensitive either. So it's in between. And I can tell you, I, I, I might have gone in the bathroom and cried, but I wasn't gonna let them see me upset about this.

Sean Weisbrot: I remember you telling me that you. Would go to Japan for work sometimes. Was this after the time we're talking about and before your work on the algorithm? That, uh, was work that was for Blackberry? 'cause I, I forgot, I wanna make sure I go kind of in a chronological order.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah. So I was with the US government, I left there, uh, there in 1988 and went to work in Silicon Valley with a startup in information security. They asked me what I wanted to do and I said. I wanna, I wanna be your director of sales in Asia Pacific. They said yes. They didn't have anyone there, so they'd already had a relationship in Japan. And so then I went and I set up all the distribution channels in 13 countries. I. By myself traveled and did that. It was an exciting time. And getting to work with the Japanese people, uh, mostly men, was uh, a great, uh, challenge and honor. They treated me as an anomaly. I wasn't a man, I wasn't a woman. I. The, my male counterparts there, they even said, Sherry son, you're, you're not, you're not either and would laugh at at that. And, uh, but what it did was, what happened was because of my credentials with, as a mathematician, I was highly respected by them and they would listen to me. If I'd have been a a, a Japanese woman, I don't know if they would've listened to me, but because, and then also because I wasn't a man, they treated me differently because they didn't really, as I said, they thought I was an anomaly. Anyway, it was a great time. It was a great challenge, very successful there and the relationship. But I, I wanna tell you one thing that happened was when I joined and I started, I was director of sales for Asia Pacific. Because the company already had a relationship with this Japanese fur. They didn't like me at first, and they called the president of the company and said, we don't like Sherry's son. Uh, we think we need to work with somebody else. And although my boss at this, uh, uh. Company was, it was a Mel Chauvinist. Uh, he stood up for me and said, if you wanna work with us, you're working with Sherry. If he had not done that, I would've, I would've lost all credibility. I. Not been as successful as I was. I would've said I'd probably been zero successful in in that environment. So he stood up for me and I did appreciate that, that he said this and that was strong. He didn't say, oh, if you wanna work with one of the men on our team, you can. But he said that, and that set me up for success.

Sean Weisbrot: Now you said they called you Sherry's son. Typically son is meant for a man.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah. Well, as I said, they, they called me Sherry's son and, uh, because again, I don't think they knew how to address me. Uh, anyway, it was, that's what they called me. I went along with it. I didn't mind. I didn't take any offense to it. I just think, yeah. And then later, oh, well, anyway, there's so many stories about Japan and I enjoyed that. Uh, I spent six years doing that work and it was, uh, along with all the other stories about all the other countries, uh, it was very rewarding and it taught me a lot about resilience, um, startups, my first startup, and how you feel like you take one step forward and two steps back. Every day and you go, oh my gosh, am I making any progress here at all? And then you find out, you know, one step at a time, uh, one action at a time. And I build up the business from hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars, uh, for this company in Silicon Valley.

Sean Weisbrot: I felt that way living in China sometimes, that you'd feel like, okay, I'm meeting the right people, the right opportunities are in front of me, and then nothing would get done. Because as an American I was used to, alright, we meet, we shake hands, like that's it. We're in business. The Chinese don't do that. And I imagine the Japanese are very similar. It's like, okay, well we're gonna do business, but I want to become your friend first. Let's go for a meal. Let's get drunk. Let's like really get to know each other to see if we can actually do business. And then like months later you're like, come on dude, can we just do business? And they're like, I don't feel like I know you well enough yet. Sorry. I dunno if you ever had that kind of experience or,

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: uh, I did and mostly, uh, with the, uh, non-Western individuals that I was dealing with. However, uh, Australia, I spent a lot of time in Australia, loved Australian people and we really did get to bond. Bond. Uh, again, I was working with just men. I learned how to drink in Australia. So, uh, it's, it is quite humorous, but it's true. Uh, that getting to know the people met a lot of social, uh, uh, a lot of dinners. A lot of lunches. A lot of lunches. That became dinners. Uh, and it was, uh, great. I was in Australia three weeks out of every quarter. Pretty much, and they felt like I was there all the time, and that's what I wanted them to think. That I'm here for you. I'm, I'm not gonna go back to Silicon Valley, to California and you're not gonna hear from me again. I'm here. And that's really what built up the relationship. I dealt with the, with in, in Hong Kong. I never was in mainland China at that time. We didn't go into that area until later. Uh, I set up an office in Singapore. I love that country too. Great people there. Very hardworking. Uh, a lot of women in that area, but that was the only women that I worked with were, that were in Singapore. Uh, but again, Japan. Uh, anyway, it was, it was, uh, it was a great opportunity for me. I grew a lot. I learned so much, and it was on the job training. Then I, I decided. I loved what I was doing, but I wasn't influential enough in the company and the senior management. I was one of the senior managers, but I wasn't enough. I didn't have enough clout or influence to change the culture. And the culture was not, uh, that it was quite toxic. I'll say that, especially for females. Even for the women who worked for me, I tried to protect them and make sure that they, uh. Were, um, they were treated fairly at all times, but I had to stand up to my, the CEO numerous times. We even had yelling matches in front of the whole company at times. So I decided, that's when I decided I needed to leave Silicon Valley and, uh, go somewhere where I could have more influence in the culture. And for some reason I decided to come to Canada. So that's how I came to Canada 29 years ago. And, uh. Married a Canadian and stayed here, but it's, uh, I've been in like four startups here in Canada, and so including, uh, the one that was sold to Blackberry and we did all the security for Blackberry.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, so I did wanna talk about that. So I've never used Blackberry. I did watch the documentary, the Dr, the drama. About the Blackberry experience. It's very interesting. I don't know if you've watched it, maybe you have, I mean, you probably lived some of it. You probably saw some of the things that they talked about in the documentary. What was it like working? Did, did you ever actually work under the Blackberry banner or did you leave when the company was sold or. And that will affect some of the questions I wanna ask, I guess. Yeah.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: So the founder of, uh, the company called Ceron, that later Blackberry acquired, was Dr. Scott Vanstone, who was later my husband. So when I started at Ceron, we were not involved with each other. We became involved and I left Tcom and went to work for MasterCard for several years. During that time, uh, c Ofcom continued to build. Of course I was part of it 'cause my husband was part of, uh, of it. He was the founder and on the board of directors and the chief Scientist. So yes, I was around it all the time. Uh, I later came back as a consultant. After Blackberry acquired C Ofcom. I came back and worked for Blackberry, but only for a short period of time. Uh, did, did I work for maybe a year or two and so yeah, so I, but I had plenty of occasions to work with both Mike LTOs and Jim Boley, and I think the commentary was right on about boley. They, they got him right. I don't think, I did not think that they. That they got Mike GTAs Right. As far as his character. Uh, anyway, I, it was interesting to watch the movie. I saw it in a premier at, uh, in Toronto and Jim Bus Lee was in the audience, so he, uh, he, yeah. Anyway, uh, that organization really, it was, it was one of, you know, it was, uh, something to. To be proud of, and then something to learn from about how not to run a company at the end, especially, and the decisions they made. And I think the movie portrayed the, the struggles they had. Especially with, with Apple coming on the scene, you know, they were, they were enterprise only in the beginning. They didn't go after the consumer market, but they decided to do that with when to bring your own devices. More companies started doing that instead of demanding that everyone use a Blackberry, which of course was more secure. Because we built a security in from the beginning into the operating system where Apple bolded on their security. So at those, in those days, the security was stronger for, uh, the Blackberry. So yeah, so it was, uh, also a great opportunity to learn from, um, how to scale a company. And that was what we were trying to do with Tcom. Although, you know, I, I was on the peripheral just as a consultant now and then. Um, but it was to how, how to take a startup and then scale it and then of course then being acquired, how to become valuable within to, in the company that acquires you is not easy to do. I found that out later when I sold my last company. So this is all a, uh, learning and an experience. Um, I would say most of it was positive.

Sean Weisbrot: Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far, and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work. And every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love. So that we can bring you something amazing and every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a, like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show now. So I wanna know more about this. I have a potential offer for one of my companies and I would be required to stay on and build things up again. Um, because my company ceased operations a year ago. So the assets are there, but the team is gone. There's no, there's nothing just me and, and the assets. So they would be acquiring the assets and hiring me to take cash that they're going to inject into the company and start it again. And how so? How can I make myself useful? Because I would be selling all of my shares. Or rather they would be giving me cash and shares, but the shares would be in the parent organization. Um, which is publicly listed. And so I, yeah, I'm just, if there's any advice you have for me, that would be excellent.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Uh, this was a tough one for me. I, I, I just stayed on for a year. The differences, I was not made the leader. I was, they knew I was leaving, so I committed to, they asked for two years commitment. I made a one year commitment with an option to renew. I. If we both mutually agreed. Uh, but all I know with this, with the acquisition, especially like with the, with the, um, acquisition of Certa Con by Blackberry, uh, there is often a lot of responsibility with no authority. So I caution you to make sure that with this responsibility of building up. Your team that you have the authority to do what you need to do. The hire, fire set, the set, the strategy. That's, that's what I've seen in the past. They're easy, they, they're ready to give you the responsibility, but not necessarily the authority.

Sean Weisbrot: So it would remain a subsidiary. So it'd be a totally separate entity. Yes.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yes, that's correct. So.

Sean Weisbrot: They would, there would be a board. So I would be one of the members, uh, the investor from my original company who's making the deal happen, would remain on in the, the larger company. He would be on the board, and then another one of their board members would be on the board. So there'd be three people. So technically the investors on, he's like, I've known him for seven or eight years. So he's basically on my side in that regard. As long as I don't do anything dumb, he'll vote with me. Um, so it'd be a three person board?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah, it would, it would be good to have, yeah. Oh, so you're gonna have a three person board and maybe have an independent two would be good. Uh, what I found again with that is that is, is this a private equity firm? That's, uh,

Sean Weisbrot: they're a publicly listed company and it's kind of like a, a shell that has a bunch of cash and it's acquiring a bunch of companies and building like a portfolio.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah. Okay. I would define that as private equity. Firm, firm, firm. Uh, just, I just find that, what I've learned too is that sometimes the investors see the, they're looking for short term and there, there needs to be a long term play too. I think you probably already know that, uh, you have a sense of you, you already had this company up and running, so you know the obstacles that you ran into before and then how you're gonna achieve those. You hopefully, I don't know if you can get the same team back together, but you can get quality people. I. Say, okay, that, you know, there's, there is, uh, a chance that you want, but I think you probably, with your connections, you would be able to get put together a good team. What are the true obstacles? Make sure that they understand those, your, your, your board and the investors. 'cause the board itself, I just see, I've just seen this happen again and again. That, uh, they. I'm not saying they're gonna do it, it's your case, but they start taking back some of the authority and inserting their own people in the and into the team, and that those people are not necessarily team players. And then they, they disrupt the team. So just if you could, if you have a good relationship already with your, your investor, then you can, you, he is, you know, it's like a mentor, a mentee relationship maybe, that you can honestly say to him, just say, this is, this is what my concerns are. And the conversation, communication, I sold to a German company and the culture was quite different. There were no women in leadership there. I should have seen that as a flag. Uh, and uh, I don't know if it would've changed anything. It might have. I think I even told you that the week after I assigned the LOII. With, with the firm. I, I, I received an offer from a woman owned company here in Canada, and I go, shoot, I should have talked to her before I signed. Uh, at least just ask her her advice in general terms about Sally, I did, I did, I did reach out to a few other people that I knew to talk about the, the acquisition and get their input, but for some reason I didn't ask her. About her thoughts about it. Anyway, this is all your dynamics are gonna be different than my dynamics. Uh, I was, especially with the last company, I, it was a transition I wasn't staying on. There wasn't a buyout. I, they paid cash for my company. They kept, they kept my people. They eventually lost most of the, the senior, almost all senior management, uh, over about two years. Even though we had non-competes, we had all this, they tried to tie us up, uh, and uh, so we couldn't leave. Not me, but the others. I had a non-compete too. Anyway, I, I, I, I find that there's probably some really good books out there, which I would, I would read the next time. Uh, if, if once, uh, I get in that situation again, which I hope to be where I'm required, uh, or IPO, whatever we do. That was also interesting to IPO. I've done twice two of those. So that was, uh, quite a, a, a crazy ride. One. Both, both were pre. The bubble bursting. So those were quite interesting times. So I loved that. That was, uh, quite, uh, uh, as I said, a ride at the time. I, I sing that song. Those were the days my friend. We thought they'd never end. Uh, so, so, so the acquisitions and the IPOs and all of this is exciting, but there's all these, uh, pitfalls that, uh, but I'm sure that you will get lots of advice from many people. On how to face.

Sean Weisbrot: So what was the hardest thing about doing the IPOs? Well, you

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: can't control the market. So wait, had already iPod with cer Ofcom in 1995, we went on the, uh, over the counter in, in Toronto. So we were going on the NASDAQ in March of 2000 and, yeah. Right when the crash started. So we're on a road trip in New York, you know, our firm that was working with us on it, and we were standing up there giving presentations and all you can see is that the stock market, the, the, especially the tech market going down like this. And it was just like, you can't control the timing of external. Factors, but I do wanna say that, uh, we should have known one of our biggest investors was Paul Allen in CirCom. He's the co-founder of Microsoft, and we knew when he, he pulled his money out and we knew he was, he told us he was gonna pull it out. He's, and he was going to pull out all of money from all of his tech investments and he had a lot of them. So we should have been a little smarter and realized that. I don't know if he had so much insight that he saw it coming or if he precipitated it, that the, the, the burst the bust and that he,

Sean Weisbrot: you mean him pulling out all of his money from Owen Investments caused everyone to panic? Well,

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: his very wealthy person, right? He's in a lot of tech company. Microsoft sees him do it. Intel sees him do it. All these.

Sean Weisbrot: In 2000? No. Like how much was he worth? Oh,

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: it's like the second, uh, next to Warren Buffet probably at that time. So yeah. This is Paul Allen. He was a co-founder. He left Microsoft with a lot of money.

Sean Weisbrot: Sure.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: I'm not saying that's true. I think he died recently. Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. Uh, I'm not saying he did. This is just my theory. Well, it's not even a theory, it's just a thought, but all I'm saying is we knew it. It wasn't like he did it behind our back. He told us, he told us why he was doing it right, and he said, uh, I think it's, you know, it's overvalued. The valuations are too high. I'm, I'm just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna liquidate all my investments. And he did.

Sean Weisbrot: What could you have done differently though? I

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: maybe on the timing we could have maybe accelerated our timing to, to go on the nasdaq? It didn't, I mean, we ended up going on the NASDAQ anyway, but it was just, all I'm saying is you can't control the markets. You can't control the external, uh uh. It, uh, what's happening externally, all you can do is hope that your fundamentals are there and, and they, they will stand up. We, of course, did not get the valuation we had hoped, but we did go on the Nasdaq.

Sean Weisbrot: And did the company ever reach the number, the the amount per share that you were hoping to get, even if it took years? Or how did that perform?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Pre, pre the pre Nasdaq, pre 2000, the shares were. Like $200 a share. CAD or USD. It went down to, it was, that was Canadian. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then that was the height, that was the top. And that was probably, I wanna say 1999, uh, early 2000. Anyway, it was in that timeframe, let's say 1999 ish. And, uh, and that was, uh, before we went on the Nasdaq. After we went on the nasdaq, the price did not, uh, it did not recover back to those. And I think we did, I, we, I, we also split, we did a split. So, uh, but we never got back up to a hundred dollars a share. Uh, and uh, and it ended up that Blackberry acquired us at $3 a share.

Sean Weisbrot: Wow.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah. Lots of lessons. Lots of lessons in there, right?

Sean Weisbrot: So, so. So people like Elon Musk typically tie their wealth in the shares that they have, um, because of ma many reasons. One of them, from what I understand, being you lower your tax burden by not cementing a, a gain or a loss, or. You can, uh, loan money from the bank using your shares as collateral in order to avoid paying income tax. And 'cause once you, when you borrow money, you're paying interest rather than a capital gains. And that's a much lower rate. So when you just said lots of things learned. Did you guys keep the majority of your wealth in that and kind of just watched it go down? Or did you sell some off as time went on? What kind of lessons did you learn specifically?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah, so, um, well not only did did we have shares, we also had stock options. Um, and of course, stock options. When I left, when I left the company in 1997 to go work for MasterCard, I, I, I didn't, I liquidated a lot. I had to liquidate, I had to exercise all my stock options, which I did, and I did very well with those. We had a peeled the onion strategy that we took a little money off, uh, uh, just on a regular basis. We didn't have it set up like many people do, and. It's a good thing to do is set up that you sell so many per quarter. So there's, the market's not, your decision to sell is not based on anything that you know at that time. So there's no question of inside trading and all that. So in those days, so we just peeled money back, uh uh, off. We took it off. We didn't, we still had the core, but for our stock options, that was a little different. We had to exercise those. When you exercise those, it's treated as if, uh, income immediately. So you have to. You might as well sell them because you need to, uh, you don't, the cost basis is already established at that time and you are taxed on that. So, uh, being eBay in both a Canadian and American, I, I paid taxes in both places and get credits. So had to consider all of that. So what we did was we took off some, but I do remember one time because God had not. Set up a selling plan. Some stock options came. They had, he had to exercise them and, uh, he let 'em go because it was just, he just knew too much at that time and it, he didn't want any scrutiny, uh, close, you know, he just didn't want that hassle of, of having to justify this. So he just let it go, which is, there was millions of dollars. He just let go. And so with this is, is of course, again, lots of lessons learned is take some off the table as, as as you can. Uh, but we told, we told our employees, take off the table. Pay off your house. You know, in Canada you don't get a right off your mortgage. So, uh, mortgage interest, right? So. Why don't you just take off some and pay down your mortgage, uh, you know, do those things and, and make sure you have no that, but there was a young Chinese, uh, researcher that we had, and he believed in the company extensively, and that, you know, he was dedicated and he didn't, he didn't take any money off the table. And then it went down to, uh, anyway, it was sad because we, we encouraged the employees take, take, take, exercise your stock options. Get some money out. You've worked really hard for this company, you know, 10, 15 years I'm building this up. Uh, and so take some money off the table.

Sean Weisbrot: Yes, it's definitely something to think about. Um, I, I met a guy who had a company, uh, go public in Australia, and it's not terribly clear to me if the company went public at a $300 million valuation or he walked away with a $300 million. But he ended up doing, um, these like loans from the share and used it to buy properties. He's like building an empire in like Louisiana. So he left Australia, moved to Louisiana, and now he flips houses for a living because he's just got nothing else he, he wants to do.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Well, you know, I think that's great. He, he found something that he enjoys and doing, and I, you mentioned, you asked about what we did with our money. We gave, we gave a lot of it away. We, I'm a big philanthropist and, and, uh, but also I've started another company. I started, you know, two companys, then the last one. But when Scott and I started the, my last, our last company, TrustPoint, he was alive, he died, passed away in 2014. We started a company 2012. We both left Blackberry and. Started this company for security, for the driverless and autonomous vehicles, and it's perfect. We were, we worked, uh, with the US Department of Transportation. We were their security experts. Uh, and it happened to be algorithms that Scott had developed. So, uh, and they were in the public domain. Tcom put so many pa uh, patents for pa uh, uh, license free in the public domain to encourage the use of the technology in specific areas. Anyway, so we, when we set that company up, we said it's just to give the money away. That's what we did with most of it. I mean, we had some money already, but we gave that sale. We, we almost, almost all of it was given to specific causes that we had already identified. And, uh, so, and then of course the employees got some outta it. So with the, with the trust point, Dale, it was a cash, uh, with a Certa deal. It was a cash, so we didn't get. Although time to time, I've owned Blackberry Shares and research and motion shares, but it wasn't from the acquisition. So it sounds like you're getting shares in the company that's acquiring you. And then hopefully you're getting some cash too.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, so they're, they're a publicly listed company in the US so I would be getting shares in that company. And so the hope is all of the other companies that they're acquiring, if they do better, then the shares will rise. So even if the company, even if the company they're acquiring for me, doesn't do well. If the other ones do well or if some of them do well, then hopefully the shares will increase in value.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yes. I, yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a great play and I, I wish you the best of luck with it, and I, I, I hope you talk to more people than me. I'm sure you will. I get their advice because there's so much out there and advice, I can just take it from my perspective that the, again, I go back to make sure that you have the authority along with the responsibility. To really take your company. I was told that even though I wasn't running the company, uh, uh, that acquired us in, in Waterloo was in Waterloo, Ontario, that the company would be a, uh, uh, autonomous and that we would have our own directive and that would be treated as a subsidiary with their own profit center. And I didn't wanna become a development shop. I said, please don't, you know, that was one of the, the, but once they acquire you. Then they could say anything they want if they're in the acquisition. But once they acquire you, they've acquired you and the assets. So

Sean Weisbrot: true. Well, yeah, I guess we'll see. I, I don't, I don't have the LOI yet, so I'm waiting for that. But once I have that, then I'll definitely be doing a lot more, uh, asking of questions to different people just to make sure that. Whatever they're showing me is, is legitimate and not going to waste my time. 'cause I have other things that I'm trying to do and I'm putting them aside to do this. So, so I wanna make sure that I'm making the right decision because if I sign that paper and it's not the right thing, then I could be putting myself in a bad situation.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Uh, well, how bad, that's the thing you have to say. What's the risk here? I know you're, you're losing, you're, you're stepping away from other things that you could be more profitable is, is what you're saying, and that, that's that trade off between, I'm gonna take this one over. Another one that could be. More lucrative? Or is it just say not really knowing. We never know Going into these things, it's really, hindsight is wonderful, but going into them, like with me, it's just saying what's the pros and cons here? And when I sold my company, there was many reasons to sell it to the company. I did. They, they were owned. 93% by a foundation that went and build hospitals. All the profits went to build hospitals and schools around the world. You know, there was all, there was many things on the positive side, but maybe I should have spent more time on the negative side, but it didn't mean, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have made the same decision.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I guess one of the positives for me is I really want a second chance to make this idea work because I know that it's really important and I know that it, it can be really cool. The thing is it requires a lot of time, a lot of energy, and a lot of money to build. So if they're willing to give me the money that I need to be able to do it, yeah, why not? Let's see how it goes. At the same time, I was, at the same time I was looking at, you know, building a consulting firm and I already have a few companies I've invested in and a few clients that I'm advising. So. You know, how can I continue all of those things and the podcast and juggle being the CEO of a company that I'm like trying to build again from scratch. So it's a, I think it's just a lot of things.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Well, we'll see. May maybe we'll touch base in a year and see how it's going because uh, sometimes you do have to prioritize. Consulting is, can be lucrative, but of course it's hard to scale and maybe it won't scale as well as, uh, the, this, uh, venture and that, as you said, they, they're putting a lot of money in you. They're backing you. They, they have faith

Sean Weisbrot: in you.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah. Speaks that speaks a lot.

Sean Weisbrot: Sure. Well, the, their portfolio play is like around enterprise tools in AI and like metaverse. And so my company was building an enterprise communications platform, so, okay. Of all of the companies that they have acquired slash want to acquire, mine has the largest potential, even though all of the other companies are operating and have revenue and profit in customers. So mine is, mine is the, the worst off in terms of the situation, however, has the best potential if we can actually get it off the ground again. So that's what

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: I'm sure you will be able to. Right. So that's what they're betting on.

Sean Weisbrot: But the whole original team is gone. They all moved on. I mean, it's been a year, so they've all moved on. They've got other jobs. There's no way they're gonna come back. And so I've gotta build a new team from scratch and that'll take some time.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Yeah, that will. But with your connections that there are a lot of very talented people out there. I found that out. Like with my company, we have, we've had zero even, we've hired a lot of peop new people, but we've had zero leave in the last year, and so the retention is very high. We, we spent a lot of time as it takes time, as you said, to find it, but keeping them is very important

Sean Weisbrot: for sure. I tried really hard to do that with my last team, but when you run outta money, there's not really much you can do.

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Well, you have to let 'em go. It's all they thing they could do. I just said, they're not gonna work for free for you. Yeah. So,

Sean Weisbrot: exactly. So you had mentioned to me off air you wanted to talk about investing, especially women, investing in other women. So what is your particular message around that? What's your philosophy around it

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: and

Sean Weisbrot: all

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: that? In the US and in Canada, it's two to 4% of VC capital goes to women. Founded companies one time it was a little more, uh, we're talking about, you know, 2 trillion, you know, trillion dollars of $450 trillion of, of VC capital available. I. So, you know, I, I just finished a raise, uh, for my company. Profound impact. We raised over $3 million. Our target was three. We raised 3.125 million. Uh, so we're oversubscribed. So I was very happy about that. But I had to go to, uh, not the traditional angel investors. Now, this is a precede. We're not talking to VCs, but we are talking to a lot of men, and it turned out that. I couldn't get, I and I did get some male investors, but what I found out was there was an untapped group of women, especially women who, who have wealth and and are philan, they're philanthropic. Many of them have somebody else manage most of them have somebody else manage their money for them, the family office or wherever. However, they have never angel invested. I. So I tapped into that stream of women who have wealth, who are interested in this. They don't take all of their wealth, they take a small percentage and they invest in a company like mine, a women founded company. And it turns out there's a new article that I just read in the last few days from the 51 outta Calgary, uh, in Canada, that if we could tap in, if men would in, if women would invest, like men invest. Angel and funds, that's over $3.22 trillion of new capital out there. And so what I'm doing is celebrating that most my investors were female women and also women who are vesting for the first time. Angel doing angel investing, and now I'm, there's initiative. I, I've been, I've been complaining about this for a while. That's why I bring it up that we need to do something. How, what do, but what do we need to do? Do we need to go and help the MEL VCs understand our US a little better? That became a big no, they're not interested in doing that. They don't think, they don't think their system's broken. I do, but that's one voice saying it. I'm not the only voice, but a few of us are saying this. But now we just, you just said, you know what? We're just gonna change the paradigm. We're going to go after the women who haven't invested, who have the capacity to invest. And it turned out this number. $3.22 trillion that we can get in. So my, I'm working with an, a group of women in an organization called Women Funding Women. It's a, it's just an organization, it's a, a not-for-profit organization to educate, bring up the opportunities, and, uh, bring the awareness. To say women, we can invest in other women and we can change, uh, the landscape here. So I'm very proud of that initiative and I'm also extremely proud of what, uh, that I was able to. Get investors into my company, first time investors, female investors.

Sean Weisbrot: So are you going to create a fund where you get these women to invest into companies and you're gonna find these, these female led companies, or are you leaving that out?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Some of the women, some of the women in this group already have funds. One has $60 million, which is not huge, but $60 million. Just a new fund in like two years. Old, uh, and so she talked about how she built up the fund, and there's some that have smaller funds, bigger funds, so we have women in the group that already have funds. So we're not, this is not about. Having another fund, although that's great. I appreciate that. That's do all we can get the money and somehow, but it's all, it's, it's about bringing the awareness about what we need, what kind of tools do we need, and then we find out that the plus, I'm sorry, the 51 already has these boot camps and training. To train women how to angel invest, or you can encourage them to go into a, an angel network, which there are plenty around here, so there's many different ways to do this, but we wanna do them all, but we're not going to reinvent things. We're gonna amplify others works and see, I mean, if there's a, a gap that we identify that, oh, we really need help in this area, we'll do that. If it's encouraging more funds, we will do that. So it's about just first or uh, saying this is this, this is a great opportunity. Let's take it. Let's build on it. Let's figure out who needs to be at the table. Invite them, investors, founders. So we're hoping to have an event to bring people in, in early in the, in the new year to say, okay, how do we continue this conversation? How do we, we get to that $3.22 trillion. Funding for women.

Sean Weisbrot: So what is the most important thing you've learned so far in your life from starting companies, scaling companies, selling companies, going public and helping women to fund other women?

Sherry Shannon-Vanstone: Many things. But the one that I heard recently, and I now adopted it from Stacey Alistair, she is the, uh, she's the tournament director for the US Open You. You're underestimating me. Oh, this is gonna be fun. So don't underestimate me because I am resilient. I persist. I'm gonna get this done.