Our Customers Paid For Our Product, But Ignored Its Best Feature

Sean Weisbrot: Vaibhav Tiwari is the founder and CEO of Build Pan, a platform that helps companies developing iOS and Android applications to continuously build, develop, and get user feedback. I wanted to bring him on because I have experience in building Android and iOS, applications with the, with my company from before.

Sean Weisbrot: And it was a freaking headache. There was, I, I literally knew nothing about development when I started the company, and so I had to learn so much about it. And so I'm hoping that there's something I can learn from him today, so that if I get the courage to do it again another time. I can do it smarter.

Sean Weisbrot: And hopefully you can learn from this episode as well, to figure out how you can do work better and maybe you'll find value in using Build Pan yourself. So thank you for taking the time to talk with me, Vaibhav. I appreciate it. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about your backstory and how you got to start building Pan, and we'll go from there.

Vaibhav Tiwari: I did my engineering back in 2005. Then I completed my Masters in Business administration and I was working as a business analyst for some tech companies.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So while working there, we were working on a lot of mobile application projects, a lot of mobile applications. While working for various mobile applications, I realized that there is a gap in mobile application development industries where developers usually struggle in creating the application, testing it, and through the deployment process.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So the whole process. The developers need to struggle a lot. They need to get the feedback from the QA team. They need to get feedback from the project management team, and it takes a hell of a lot of time. So we have observed that it takes approximately 10 to 15 plus an ations for a mobile app to come down in the market.

Vaibhav Tiwari: And it takes approximately 30 to 45 days for an update to go down to come down in the market. Because of the cutthroat competition, we wanted something which can publish, a product, which can publish an application. Faster and down in the market. So we thought that if we can make a product where the already existing tools which are there in the market, they're either working for Android, or working for iOS.

Vaibhav Tiwari: No such platform can solve all the problems in one single place. So we thought that if we can make a platform where everything is available at one single place where developers can make applications starting from scratch and they deploy directly on the app store, then it would be a huge hit. So spending a lot of weekends, eating a lot of developers' brains.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We pro, we, we created an MVP and we have shown it to a couple of people. some of the people, some of the clients that we've been working with. And they appreciated it. And we finally created a prototype and submitted to, to the market . Let's check how the response will come. And the response was good.

Vaibhav Tiwari: And that's how we were created.

Sean Weisbrot: So you bootstrapped the MVP and then did you try to go, To profit with that or did you try to raise funds from there? What was your concept for how to build a company next?

Vaibhav Tiwari: We bootstrapped it first initially because, three years back, people, I mean, startups. Phrase was there, but, people were not actively, people were not actively believing, in the process of the companies that are coming up.

Vaibhav Tiwari: we, we had, we, I mean the team, the backend team, I had 10 plus years of experience. My founder, another co-founder, Ian, has 15 plus years of experience. We bring a lot of experience to the table, but still, it takes some amount of time. It. I mean, I believe, I mean, while speaking to a lot of investors, if you don't put your stakes in, people won't believe you.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So we bootstrapped it, we started it. We put a lot of savings into it. Then we started it. After three months of good response from a lot of people, we thought that this is something that could be a huge hit. That this is something that, I mean, when, when our baby started crawling, so during that time we spoke to a couple of investors.

Vaibhav Tiwari: It was more of a friends and family round where we spoke to a couple of angel investors. We've given demos to some of the conferences, which were going on. In India specifically. And there, we met some like-minded people who believe in the project. And, during that time, we raised a very small amount, a hundred K, which was enough for us for, for, to survive, for, for surviving approximately six months.

Vaibhav Tiwari: And then we met a lot of people. Those investors introduce us to their friends. And, after six months, we, we, I mean, we raised another round of 500 K. So, I mean, the journey has been really good and, I mean, it's been really good. And how much did you raise to date? So we raised three rounds.

Vaibhav Tiwari: the one that I told you a hundred K. Then we raised 500 k. And recently last year, I mean, last year we raised 2 million US dollars. And we, we raised, we are raising another 5 million US dollars in this round. For which we got some soft commitments and let's see how things goes.

Sean Weisbrot: So how do you handle your internal operations? Segregation of duties? Do you have a global workforce? How are you handling that?

Vaibhav Tiwari: So from the very first day, I mean from, from a couple of experiences of our friends also, we decided and we segregated our duties properly. I mean, I handle after the investor relationships, new pitch tech. New investor relationships, managing and also sales and marketing.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So these are some of the roles and responsibilities that I usually cover. V and Anthony look after the tech part, so they have, again, divided themselves and Android, vain looks after iOS, Anthony looks after. And so she looks after all the finances. So, we have divided. All our duties are segregated.We keep a day every, every Monday we speak to each other.

Vaibhav Tiwari: I mean, we usually speak to each other on every, every single day when, when we are in office. But we keep a weekly meeting that these are the tasks that everyone is working upon. I'm working on it. We have created some work report formats. I believe that work reports are something which is not specific.

Vaibhav Tiwari: Only or something which is only for employees, it should be for the founders as well, because everyone knows that what that other person is working upon. And if everyone knows or if everyone has the track that this other works and roles and responsibility other person is dealing with, then the chances of issues usually are very less so.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We, we, and mostly our team is in India. I mean, and specifically during this time. I mean, everyone is working from the office. There are a couple of people who are working from home, but since everyone is in India, working and managing a team is a little bit easy.

Sean Weisbrot: You've also been to Singapore, I believe, right? You've, you've been to a few other countries.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We are headquartered in Singapore. So, initially we started in India, but when we started globally, we got a lot of global clients and when we got a lot of investors from Shanghai. Then, there was, there was, an opinion that we should establish ourselves outside India because it would be easy, it would be a global, global presence, and people would be easy to, I mean, it would be easier for people to have a due diligence and put money in the, in, in your product.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So we've been to Singapore. We attend a lot of events. We attend a lot of, I, I've been recently to Tex Dubai, so I mean, it was, I, my, I. First, first, first event outside India when we started. I've been to a couple of events when I was working with some other companies, but, I mean, when we started it was, I mean, we, we started in December, 2019 and January was the time, 2020 when.

Vaibhav Tiwari: COVID hit all over the world and people were working virtually. So yeah, it was, I mean, initially we used to go that this is what my company was working upon, but now I have, I mean, I had a different feeling altogether because I go and that this is my product, this is what I am working upon. This is, this would be something really interesting if you can.

Sean Weisbrot: How long after it was recommended to you to establish yourself outside of India? Did you finally do it? And how did it feel? Was there a difference? Did you feel like your business was different in any way, or you were becoming different in any way as a result of this kind of change?

Vaibhav Tiwari: When we started, after six months, we established ourselves outside India. Specifically talking about investor point, an investor point of view, There was a change, because, when you tell people that, you, you, you're not based, I mean you're based in India, but you have headquarters yourself outside India. Then there is a change specifically, the taking money.

Vaibhav Tiwari: I mean, investing in India is a little difficult because of some of the government norms. People do find it difficult to invest in India and in Singapore it's quite easy because, the process and the business. why are they, they've set up themselves. so it's comparatively very easy.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So there were a lot of companies and there were a lot of investors initially when we spoke with them, but they were not able to put money in. But, when we started, when we established ourselves in Singapore. It was competitively easier.

Sean Weisbrot: My startup is in Singapore as well. And one of the reasons we chose it was because I had been living in China and Vietnam and my partners were in the Philippines and Malaysia, and none of those countries really just made investors feel comfortable. So we thought Singapore would be a really good place to be and it worked out. For sure

Vaibhav Tiwari: when I recently visited ecs, even Dubai is promoting themselves as a good business friendly country. they have also eased their norms and, they were also trying to speak to a lot of people. I mean, there was a good big booth where they were trying to tell people that it would be good if you could come and establish a headquarters.

Sean Weisbrot: I've met a lot of people who are. Either they've moved to Dubai or they're in the process of moving to Dubai or they wanna move to Dubai. And I just don't see the charm. Like if you're not, if you're making less than a quarter million dollars a year personally, like I don't see how you could survive there.

Sean Weisbrot: And, and I, a lot of startup founders I know are not bringing home a quarter million a year.

Vaibhav Tiwari: True. Absolutely. So, one of our friends, he's working on blockchain technology. He recently moved to the Wire and he was very much, forcing us that it would be good if you also, if you guys also move in.

Vaibhav Tiwari: It's a great place and everything, but, I still believe, I mean, working in India is comparatively cheaper. the workforce. The workforce is a little cheaper. though after. Attrition is one of the things that a lot of startups are fighting with. People are really getting a good amount of money, a good amount of packages from all over the country, and they don't need to move their assets to another place they can sit at home and work.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, I mean, the woman I was working with, she was living with her parents. She was doing quite well and basically didn't have much costs. So, when, when you're. Especially when you're working with a non-domestic, like if you're working with a, with like, for example, I'm not Indian, right?

Sean Weisbrot: And hired an Indian, so like I am a, a foreign company, right? I represented a foreign company. And so when you have access to salaries in dollars like that, then it makes sense to live in the cheapest places possible. I mean, I was living in Vietnam for years and like. I was living an upper class lifestyle for like $1,200 a month, right?

Vaibhav Tiwari: I can totally understand. I can totally understand. I believe, if you're in India, It would be similar here. I mean, $1,200 would be an upper class lifestyle,

Sean Weisbrot: but now living in Portugal, I'm living a, like a middle class lifestyle for 2,500. Oh hmm. And somehow Portuguese people are making 800 euros a month, and they're, they're making it work. But I don't know how, like, I, I see all these countries, like in Vietnam, they're like, yeah, we make like $300 a month. How are you surviving? Like, I can't live for under a thousand in Vietnam. that's,

Vaibhav Tiwari: they're like, it's, it's, it's, it's totally people's choice. There are people who are very much happy and less so. I believe that is one of the things.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I think the thing for me is the quality of the housing. That's right. Because I spend most of my day at home. Mm-hmm. working from home or if not, I'm in a cafe or something. So I wanna be somewhere that's clean and comfortable and somewhere that I, I

Vaibhav Tiwari: It should give off a really good vibe. Right? You gotta pay for that. Absolutely. You have to. I mean, specifically, I mean a, a little off the topic. After COVID, the housing rates in India are totally increasing because there are a lot of people who are working from home and everyone wants a home for themselves, A cozy home. So that is one of the things that I, I've been reading constantly, that the housing rates and the interiors have been on a rise for quite some time.

Sean Weisbrot: Yes. I've seen this all over the world. So I wanna go a little bit more into tech. So, what is continuous development?

Vaibhav Tiwari: Initially what happens is, I mean, if you want to make a single change in the code. You have to rewrite the whole code, specifically that part, and you have to deploy the full application. But in case of continuous deployment or continuous dev development, the process is very simple. You need to put that particular piece of code in the existing running application and you can change that particular line and deploy directly on the app store. So, the process where you have to rewrite the whole thing.

Vaibhav Tiwari: All you have to do is to change that particular line and you can deploy it directly on that platform, or you can directly deploy on the app store. So that is what continuous development is.

Sean Weisbrot: What is continuous build? How are these two things different?

Vaibhav Tiwari: Continuous build or continuous integration? Integration. Initially what people used to do is they used to write the complete application or complete code deploy. I mean, they compile the whole code and then it goes to the app store. Now what happens is. You can make small changes and deploy directly on the app store. You don't need the whole code.

Vaibhav Tiwari: A continuous integration or continuous deployment process is something where you can make changes in the live code and deploy directly on the app store

Sean Weisbrot: when you're trying to use something like CICD scripts. Sorry to everyone. Continuous development slash continuous integration scripts. What are the chances of having bugs and how do you prevent those bugs from getting in?

Vaibhav Tiwari: That is one of the things that we have done in Bill Pan. So, while the continuous integration process goes on, Bill Pan also checks that your code is following the latest Apple, Google, apple, or Google policies or not. If your code is not following those, Bill Pen will give you an intimation. That your code is not following Apple or Google policies, and there might be a chance that your app might be rejected on the App Store along with it. With Bill Pan, while you push your code to Bill Pan, Bill Pan scans your whole code.

Vaibhav Tiwari: If there are any bugs, any issue, any error, come, auto report is generated from Bill Pen and this also happens to be the USP of. Where it finds all the bugs, all the issues, all the errors which are there in the code, it'll give you a report, a bug report. So consider for an example that your code failed on line 10th, 11th, or 12th.

Vaibhav Tiwari: auto report is generated from Bill Pen, that your code has been failed on these particular lines. Along with it, it'll also give you auto suggestions. That your code failed because you're using an outdated Facebook library. Consider for example, an outdated Facebook library or outdated sdk. So along with providing auto bug reports also provide you auto feedback or auto suggestions which help developers to rectify their solutions by themselves.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So they actually don't need to go, or they don't need further QA team's feedback. It can be done through. So where does the AI come into all of this? We have written a lot of test cases at the backend where what happens is the build pen checks all the code on the basis of the test cases that we have written, and the machine at the backend is training on the basis of those test cases that are written at the backend.

Vaibhav Tiwari: That, these are normally, these are the issues which usually happen in this particular type of application. So, a machine is training on the basis of the test cases that have been written, and it tries to detect those errors or those issues. By itself. So it's not trained completely, but still in the, it's in the process.

Sean Weisbrot: How do you think chat GPT is going to affect your, the landscape of your business?

Vaibhav Tiwari: Speaking? I'm not much aware about the process, but I'm more concerned, not more, but a little bit concerned about the no-code softwares which are coming in the market right now because it's more on the drag and drop feature where people are.

Vaibhav Tiwari: Able to create the applications or create, website on the basis of that. So, they can be a huge competition. but I still believe, I mean, a ready-made code or something, a ready-made product, cannot directly compete with the one who is creating it. But still, I mean, these are some of the challenges that, can be, a big that can be, these are some of the big challenges that can come.

Vaibhav Tiwari: for, for a platform like us in the future,

Sean Weisbrot: isn't there a way to adapt to that though? To kind of compete back with no-code, to make it possible to do something that assists with no-code

Vaibhav Tiwari: in a way? That is one of the things that I mentioned. I keep mentioning in, my, my conversations that, we are, we are creating and some NLP based plugins.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So, it's, it's more like, It's, it, it'll be a natural language programming based plugin where all a developer has to do is they have to speak and that code will be visible right in front of him. So, but that would be, again, a robust code. Which would be, which, which, which is written by the developers, which is written by experienced developers, and it won't be having those parts.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So that is something that our team is working upon, where, people, all people have to do, they have to speak and that code will be visible, right, right in front of them and they can work on some other tasks. So it could be much, I mean, that is one of the things that the team is working on.

Sean Weisbrot: What's the difference between, or maybe there is no difference. Maybe they're, they're complimentary between something like a GitLab, a GitHub, a Jira. or a, sorry, a Bitbucket. and build Pan GitLab

Vaibhav Tiwari: Bitbucket. They are repositories where people store their code. So if you want to utilize Build Pan, you have to connect these accounts with Build Pan. Where Build Pan will check or build Pan will take the access of all the repos that you're working upon and it can start working upon Jira is work management tool.

Vaibhav Tiwari: You can connect it with Bil Pan. We have given an option where you can connect it with Bil Pan Jira, Skype, Trello. These are some of the boards that you can connect with Bil Pan. And once the latest build, or once the latest update is available in the market, is available for the team to test it. Everyone knows that this is available and you can download it on your phone and test it, and then it is ready to go live on the platform.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So these are some of the things that can be connected to built on a platform.

Sean Weisbrot: That makes sense. Yeah. 'cause I, I wasn't completely sure, 'cause there's some, there's, there's some companies that, may be building something that are going to compete with those products, but I, I wasn't quite sure, how you saw them.

Sean Weisbrot: So it's good that you're partnering with them through integrations because I think there's a lot more value in doing that than trying to compete in that regard. What do you think comes after the no-code revolution?

Vaibhav Tiwari: I'm not too sure in which direction that particular thing is going, because right now, most of the no-code softwares that I have seen, they are more like a drag and drop tool where some things, teams and plugins and everything is available on one single platform.

Vaibhav Tiwari: People can try and drop it and can make it. They're doing some container changes in those particular applications. But, as I mentioned, they're not very much, I mean they, I mean, they can be customized, but they, they cannot be, they cannot compete. They cannot compete with a readymade application, which developers create.

Vaibhav Tiwari: The reason being that it can be customized. There are a lot of changes in a particular application, which needs to be made, which our developer can only make.

Vaibhav Tiwari: Right now on the basis of research that I have done or the things that I have read, it's more of a drag and drop tool. Now, there might be a possibility that they might be coming with something, which can be more customized, but, I believe that, it won't be, it won't be able to compete with an application which can be customized or which can be created by developers.

Sean Weisbrot: I know with my company, we had an issue with trying to get builds out on time, and I think a lot of companies probably have this issue where like, you might go to download an app, but you're like, oh, well the last time they updated it was like three months ago. I'm not sure that I want to use this thing.

Sean Weisbrot: Right. I'm sure a lot of people, a lot of end users. Maybe I don't know how many people looked at the last time someone was updated. I know I do. that that's a decision that I make, that that's something I take into consideration as to whether I want to download that application or not. And, so I remember that we were talking about how to get to, two releases a month or maybe four releases a month potentially.

Sean Weisbrot: but then I also see companies that are pushing releases every few days. they might do eight or 10 or 12 a month. What have you found is the average time between public pushes on your, your, your platform?

Vaibhav Tiwari: I've been working on a lot of mobile applications. so one of our clients, it's, they have a freelancing platform, similar to Upwork. and they push their application quite fast. I mean, they update their application approximately three to four times in a month. Every week there is an update where they keep updating ourselves with the latest data because it has a lot of freelancers at the backend.

Vaibhav Tiwari: There are a lot of project managers. There are a lot of people, there are a lot of clients which are there at the, and there is also one, taxi application that we are working with here in India. And they also update their application quite frequently, but there are also some applications, which update their application sometime once or even twice in a month.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So, it totally depends on the business model and also how frequently the, the, the changes that they're making in their application. Companies like games, app game gamers, game applications, companies who are making games, companies who are creating music applications, they frequently change or update their application, e-commerce applications.

Vaibhav Tiwari: They, or frequently update their applications. But an application, something like, a mailbox or, someone who is, creating. poker application, a type of application, which, I mean, it, it's a game. It, it's, it's a game. But, the client of that particular application, he rarely updates his application.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So, I mean, this is one of the problems that we even, I mean, when I was working in some other company, when we had not started in Build Pan. We usually struggle where, so that is also one of the reasons that we started Build Band because, developers are a lot, I mean they need to, they have to be dependent on various other people who create and to update the build, particular build so that people can download it on the phone and test it.

Vaibhav Tiwari: The client can download it on the phone and can test it. So there are multiple reasons. they need to be dependent on the QA team. Sometimes they need to be dependent on the other developer because of some of the parts that he might be creating, which needs to be integrated and merged with his partner, and he might have not completed it.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So we wanted a platform where everything is available. A developer, they don't need to be dependent on the QA or they don't need to be dependent on the project management. Or, or, or sometimes the I, as I mentioned, that people are not aware of how they need to find the UD ID or specifically in case of iPhone, they don't need to check that.

Vaibhav Tiwari: How can I find the UD id? So we created these lists, these backlogs, and we thought that let's try to solve these problems one by one and then. We created. So, yeah, I mean, but, specifically, I mean, answering your first part of your question, specifically after COVID, many people want to come online.

Vaibhav Tiwari: There are a lot of businesses which are online. There are a lot of small businesses who have created the applications. So they wanted the tech support to be. minimum so that they can maintain their application. So applications, which, which are, which are, which doesn't require much update.

Vaibhav Tiwari: Like, I mean, it again, totally depends on the client and the volume of the business that that particular client is.

Sean Weisbrot: What are some of the mistakes you see companies make once they've onboarded, like. Where you've discovered their operations are messed up there, there's something wrong and, and maybe you have to go and help them to fix in order to make sure that they can use your product properly.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We have a proper onboarding team, which is there, which actually, so usually it's, it's a couple of hours where, I mean, not even a couple of hours. It takes a maximum of half an hour for a person to understand the whole product because. We have kept the dashboard to be pretty simple. We have kept only things which are needed for a developer to use.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So, it usually takes 20 to five minutes for a developer to set up the whole thing and can start, he can start using the product. but we, we've kept us, onboarding team, which is there with them, for almost, for almost all the time. If, if they're facing some issues, they're, I. Available and resolve those issues.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So one of the things that we've, we've, we've seen constantly is those bug reports feature people, find those bugs, but they, I mean, they don't work on the suggestions that we provide to them. And, it's one of the USPs that we tell people that this is the USP and this is something that you've been paying money for.

Vaibhav Tiwari: I mean, this is something that you've been paying money for. So you need to use that bug report properly because, we've seen that, it's almost 80 to 90% accurate and you don't need the QA team and you don't need other people to find those, read those, code line by line.

Vaibhav Tiwari: You don't need the developers to read the code line by line. We've given you a proper bug report. You can check those bugs and rectify and can again push your code. So that is some of the things that we have seen people usually struggle with. There have been instances where we have seen that people don't connect their accounts. I mean, they want a rest API where they don't want to connect.

Vaibhav Tiwari: They don't want us to have access to their full git, as you mentioned, so that we can have full access to their code. They wanted something. I mean, if a person is working on five projects, he only wants to give access to one single project. But if you're, if we take access to GitHub, we have all the projects that he's working upon.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We need to give them a rest API so that there is no issue. You can connect your, you can connect your one single project through your laptop. You don't need to give them access.

Sean Weisbrot: People are paying for the USP and not even using it. They're paying for everything. they're, they're using everything else. That's right. How have you thought about how to change that? Because it sounds like when you tell them, Hey, look, this is the USP, this is like why we made this product. They're not taking advantage of that. What do you think about it? Like, we should force them to do it. Or maybe the thing you thought was important people don't care about. Maybe you don't need to continue building it and pivot away from that.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So for solving this problem, what we have done is, we've, we, we created an email template that describes all things while creating the application, what all issues they faced. Specifically bug reports. Consider for an example, if a developer was creating an application and his bill failed five times, and the number of bugs that have occurred are these many numbers of bugs.

Vaibhav Tiwari: We send a weekly update, or once he completes that, we try to send an email to the whole team. The whole project management team was connected to that particular. Account that this is this case, this is what happens and this is what you've been paying for. So initially, initially we were facing this issue, but now, I mean, mostly people have accepted it.

Vaibhav Tiwari: And, that particular template, that the number of applications, the number, number of issues that have been faced, a total summary of, what they have done on the product, the number of the amount of time they've spent. Sent to them, every day. Even initially we started every day, but now we've started. Let's just do it.

Vaibhav Tiwari: Once he completed a project or completed one single bit.

Sean Weisbrot: Have you noticed that that changed the behavior at all?

Vaibhav Tiwari: It did because, initially when we started it, we wanted a lot of feedback from the person who, how our product is performing and what, all things are actually making them use our product more and more.

Vaibhav Tiwari: And, initially when people were not noticing it, and when we, when, when, when, when we tried to speak to a lot of people, they were initially using it only for creating the application and not for finding bugs or finding issues. Then we spoke to people that this is also, that can be done through Build Pen.

Vaibhav Tiwari: You have a platform, you have a particular tab where the issues are, you can read those issues, you can rectify those issues. We kept that, we kept, I mean we marked specifically, we made some changes in the UI so that people can actually. Go into that particular tab and the response has been good.

Vaibhav Tiwari: So now people are using it effectively. And since it's, it's, it's our USP, this is what, when we speak to new people or new new person, that this is what our product is. Because there are already a lot of existing tools in the market, but there is no single platform which is actually solving this problem where you can find bugs by yourself.

Vaibhav Tiwari: They are using any kind of a debugging tool, but with it's internal made. Where people can find the bugs in the platform itself.

Sean Weisbrot: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to add?

Vaibhav Tiwari: Raising funds initially can be difficult, but you need to believe in a product. If, if you believe in your product that this is something which can disrupt the whole system, which, this is something which can actually change the system, then you need to believe in it.

Vaibhav Tiwari: and some or other day you will get the funding. So. Funding is important, but it is not the most important thing. Your product is important, and if you're able to run the product by yourself, you don't need the investors. I believe that investors give you an edge because, apart from the money, they also connect you with various people.

Vaibhav Tiwari: They also open various doors. So specifically speaking with them, I mean specifically talking about SOSV. When they invested in us, theyintroduced a hell lot of clients, a hell, a lot of prospects, a hell lot of mentors as well, who actually helped us. There were some things which we were not doing correctly and now we are doing correct.

Vaibhav Tiwari: But yeah, so I mean, that's, that's all

Sean Weisbrot: There's value in investors if they're the right people, but if you don't need them, don't go running for them.

Vaibhav Tiwari: True.