How One Unchecked Spam Folder Almost Cost Me $150000

Hope Timberlake: I'm Hope Timberlake and I am a co-founder of Forte Consulting. We are a business consultancy that focuses on communication skills on high performing teams and leadership development. And together with my co-founder, we. We bring in about 800,000 a year.

Sean Weisbrot: Alright, sounds good. Thank you very much for that hope. I appreciate that. So what was it that made you excited about starting this business and what keeps you excited about it today?

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, so  I love what I do in terms of working with people in terms of training and coaching, but the difference between being a, a contractor for someone else's business and my own business was a big, huge leap. And I didn't take it, I didn't overthink it. I am a child of an entrepreneur and who didn't graduate from college. So to me there I could see that hard work and mindset really helped when it came to making business decisions. So going from a contractor for other people to my own business was scary. But actually that decision, um, was really clear to me. Um, partly because when I was. When I was a contractor for other companies, or even when I was work an employee for other companies, I didn't have as much control financially or even just in terms of the clients that I worked with. And I knew that by owning my own business I could be in, in control of all those things. Of course, as a downside to that, because when I started the, the business, uh, the economy was pretty good and then we hit into oh oh nine and 2010 and things got a little murkier and uglier and that was. Pretty scary, but, uh, but the decision itself to go into my own business was, was very clear.

Sean Weisbrot: Random follow up before we go back to your, I I, was it your father or your mother who was the entrepreneur, or both? It was

Hope Timberlake: my father.

Sean Weisbrot: My

Hope Timberlake: father.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. So. Um, you currently are doing about 800,000 a year now. Has your business ever done more than a million in a year?

Hope Timberlake: Uh, you know, I, I think that, to be fair, I'm in a very unique situation where I have a co-founder, but we actually are sole proprietors bound by marketing. So collectively the Forte Consulting brand on. The web and in terms of our email, in terms of our Dropbox is bigger. So collectively we have done more than a million. My piece is less than half of that, so I am, I am more or less doubling mine, but yes. Um, each year though, I think what your real question is, is have we gone higher and then have we gone lower? And each year we've actually made more money than the prior year. So, uh, collectively Forte Consulting does make more than a million dollars. Um, it's just that we, we, it comes into a couple different bank accounts because we're sole proprietors.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. Fair enough. So would you say the pandemic helped your business or hurt your business?

Hope Timberlake: It helped it, um, it actually reallocated things a lot. We were doing a lot of work in person, obviously, um, that didn't. Happened after the pandemic and we were doing a lot of conferences going on site in Las Vegas and Orlando and New Orleans and wherever our conferences were. And we'd no longer had that work and that was very lucrative work. So it was scary at first, but I. So many people wanted coaching and training and could access it because they were working from home. They weren't commuting. So, um, the volume of work we had really increased and we made a decision with other people in our, in our line of work where we weren't going to discount because we were virtual. We were keeping the, the fees the same. We weren't, we weren't raising them either, but we weren't discounting. And so as a result of increased volume at the same rates without the commutes. Our business grew, I, I'd say it probably grew 20 to 20. 20, 20%.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. I think if it were me and I saw that demand, I'd probably increase prices.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. No, I, we, we now have, so it's, it's one of those things where we weren't sure what's going on. So we now have, and, and actually it's been a really smart, um. And life preserving decision because we were burning out and we're like, wait a minute. There's no reason why we need to take all this demand. But because in the beginning, thinking back to spring of 2020, or even summers 2020, we didn't know how long or when or what. And so we just, um, just took all the work that was coming at us and then it took us a while. It took us too long to increase our rates, but we have done so.

Sean Weisbrot: How long was too long?

Hope Timberlake: Oh, uh, I mean, we, well, like you said, we should have done it immediately, but, uh, I think given, I think, I think we should have done it certainly, certainly by fall of 2020. And it took until spring of 2022 really to do it, to, to do it across the board. We were doing it slowly in, in certain, uh, for certain clients or in certain industries, but across the board it took us until spring of 2022.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. So I wanna go back to your father. What exactly was he involved in and how old were you, I guess, when you realized that?

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, it's interesting. Um, he's one of six kids and, um, he is, um, he's the, the child of, uh, a car dealer. So the car dealer was, was a Ford, um, dealership. And my grandfather in right after World War II moved to Florida and, uh, he had a, he knew a guy I think probably from the war who. Um, was financially sound. He was a rich guy and said, okay, I wanna have a business in Florida for, I guess tax purposes or some reason. And my, and he said, asked my grandfather if he would run the business. So my grandfather was running the business, but um, he had this, he had a financial backer. My dad was the third of six kids. The only one not to go to college. He went to junior college for like a year, but he started working in the dealership at age 16. In the meantime, um, my grandfather was, was, was getting older and he was an alcoholic and he was, he was getting sick. And my dad was only 16, but he kept working there throughout his, um, high school. And then, you know, his, his late teens, his twenties, so by the age of about 23. He came up with a plan to take over the dealership from the, the owner and from my grandfather, and to, to buy into it over, over time. And it took him until he was probably in his mid thirties to actually, um, pay off the, um, the, the. The debts. But, um, he just knew that that was something that he was passionate about. He wasn't passionate about school or, um, anything academic, but very passionate about service and sales and, um, and growing it. Um, my, my grandfather did a fine job of maintaining it and, um, Greg, gregarious guy, but my dad really had vision for what it could be. So it went from one dealership of. Ford dealership to about 12 different, um, uh, car brands. Uh, and that was probably over the course of his twenties and mid thirties that he, that he built it to that, you know, 15 years or so of work. Um, but so I knew, I mean, I was born when he was 23, so I knew my whole life. I don't remember any time not knowing that he was, he was very hard worker. I mean, he was never home until, you know, eight o'clock at night and working most days. Including part on Sunday. So he was, he was really not around a lot, but it was close to where we lived. So we would go visit him a lot. We would see, um, the dealership. We, we just saw him working and, um, saw him interacting with customers and with his employees. And, um, he, he's, uh, his hard work. And his mindset and his, uh, relationship with people were really transformative for me.

Sean Weisbrot: So do you think him working so much affected you negatively in any way?

Hope Timberlake: Well, that's a great question. I think it's hard for me to turn it off now, and I do think that, uh, I don't know as a child so much. I mean, maybe, but I haven't gone to therapy about that. I think, uh, where it's impacted me is it's very hard. For me to draw boundaries, um, between home and work and I mean, we all know with the pandemic that that evaporated any type of boundary. So it does, I do wonder whether my kids will see it as okay. They're, I think they are very proud of me. I know they're proud of me, and at the same time. Uh, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not as available as other parents can be. Perfect example, this morning my son couldn't find something and he, he lost, um, he, he, he'd lost a, he's going to an amusement park. It's the summertime he is gonna amusement park. And I had, uh, I had given, I had. Bribed him more or less to come with me to the amusement park. I had, I had owed, um, a birthday present to a nephew, and so I took the little, my, my nephew to the, to the amusement park, and I said if he came with me, I would pay for his pass for the summer. It was early in the summer. He couldn't find the pass, he couldn't find the email, he couldn't find any information about where it was. That I had purchased this past from months ago, and he was like, mom, help me. And I was like, I, I've got so much going on right now, like I'm getting ready to talk to Sean. I have inbox full of email. I was like, you gotta, you gotta do it on your own. And so there are pieces of it where I know he gets deflated on things like that where he has to go. Now look for the, the email that showed that I'd purchased this, this. Pass for him or go make his own lunch or do that kind of thing. But I'm hopeful that just makes them more resilient and independent. Um, I'm sure they will go to therapy at some point for that. But in terms of like your, your question, I don't know that it's negatively impacted me, but I do think it does impact me and um, and there's some guilt around there, you know, guilt around, okay, I'm prioritizing my business a lot of the time, most of the time. And that feels, um. You know, that, that, that can feel bad when you're like, okay, you're watching your kids be bummed out. I mean, I don't really care that he can't find the, the amusement park pass, but I have missed other things. I've missed, you know, concerts or plays or things because I've been on the road and um, you know, I feel badly about those things, but I know plenty of parents are in that same boat and we do the best we can.

Sean Weisbrot: So, do you ever. Feel like, so how do I say this? Like, uh, willpower. Willpower is this thing that like slowly depletes over time. For some people it's a few hours. For some people it's a few days, a few weeks, a few months. Do you have this kind of like internal meter where like at some point you go, damn it, I just need to do something for my kids.

Hope Timberlake: Hmm. Like,

Sean Weisbrot: I can't keep like putting it off.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. I mean, and I think I want to too. I mean, like the kid thing is one thing because I do want to, um, other, other fires are burning and then I, I prioritize those. But I think in terms of also the willpower around where that comes into play is more. Taking care of my health. So in, uh, 2020 before the pandemic, I had committed to writing a book. So I was like, great, I'm gonna write this book. And then I got the gift of the pandemic where I could get up at six in the morning when I would've been commuting normally and, and write for an hour and a half. And so, more or less wrote itself. But the problem was I was writing. I would grab something for breakfast. I was on with clients from like eight 30 to five 30 or six or whatever, trying to throw together some dinner or get, you know, get something in my body. And I did not exercise. I did not see my friends. I did not do that. I. Anything really for me. So that was where I get to a place where I'm like, okay, I can be really focused, but this, I mean, I, I gained 15 pounds, which luckily I've since lost. But, um, it was really one of those things of like too focused and getting to a place where I'm like, okay, great. I've got this focused. Work and on this, on this book goal. But I, I have to get to a place where I'm starting to schedule, getting outside exercising, doing some things that are healthy for me. Um, the kids, I would, I would, I would see, like, I would make sure I'd see them at six o'clock at night or something, but that was after like, you know, logging in 12 hours of, of work and then focused on them. Crashing to bed at 10 or 11 and then doing it all over again. So I had to be really focused on like, okay, I need to carve out time and that's, and not feel guilty about that. Like carve out an hour. Maybe not every day, but, but several days so that I could go move my body, sweat, do something. And truly, I did feel guilty 'cause I was like, how am I, how, how can I get everything done? Um, if I'm doing that, but I realize I'm gonna really flame out if I don't, I

Sean Weisbrot: sometimes think about how the hell people have enough time to have a family and a career. And like I, I'm not against having kids. I would. I would kind of welcome it ex, except for the whole climate change will potentially make their existence very difficult, which is, uh, a different existential thing to think about. But, but assuming all of those things are fine, I just like, I struggle on a daily basis as a single person.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, it's a lot to get everything done. I. Yeah. No, Sean, you know, and you have employees who are relying on, on you. Most of my, um, work as, as contractors, so I don't have to, you know, they, they get paid for what they do, which is, um, a little bit less of a stress than having the employees that I know that you have, and that's hard. And you don't have an investor. I don't have an investor. Right, right, right, right. So those demands, I mean, those are not to be taken lightly, having an investor, having employees. Um, I certainly have the bills to pay and I certainly do have the contractors to pay. But, um, if I'm smart about the decisions I make in terms of like, when do I bring on a contractor, when I don't, then it's doable.

Sean Weisbrot: I used to be in your situation. I mean, the last business I had before I started my, my tech company, I was consulting and providing services, uh, with contractors when I couldn't fulfill that specific thing and I didn't have investors. And yeah, it was great. I loved it. Yeah. I'm like, sometimes I look back, I'm like, why the hell did I think it would be a good idea to start a tech company?

Hope Timberlake: Well, you, you know what though? You're so in the middle of it, it, it seems like it's a ridiculous thing to do. And when you look back on your life, no matter how these companies go, every founder I know has been so proud of what they've learned and what they've tried. Uh, and I just can't imagine anyone who has that desire to. Be a founder, they're gonna feel like they didn't do what they were set out to do. If they don't, they don't follow through and, and you're doing it. So, yeah. I mean, the road is rocky, but you're doing it, which is huge. Huge. Um, kudos to you.

Sean Weisbrot: I've spoken to several hundred founders at this point. Yeah,

Hope Timberlake: yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: And what I've learned from them is the majority don't have investors.

Hope Timberlake: Mm-hmm.

Sean Weisbrot: A lot of them are doing. 3, 5, 10, 20, $30 million a year.

Hope Timberlake: Mm. Yeah. They

Sean Weisbrot: seem to be pretty happy with their circumstances.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: And. I just really love talking to all of them, and that the more I do this, the more I'm like the, the tech company,

Hope Timberlake: eh, well, and that's it. Life is long. We could make pivots. I think that's the beautiful thing, is like there's not one linear road to take, um, to find happiness and success and, you know, and in a year or five or 10 years, it could all look really different for you.

Sean Weisbrot: So then, okay, I guess I, I can ask you this then. Uh, do you see yourself pivoting from what you're doing now? Is this, have you ever thought about ending the business or changing the services or,

Hope Timberlake: yeah, no, I think, I think the big thing is, um, five, well, certainly 10 years ago and five years ago ago as well, I was. Never, I didn't wanna bring on more consultants or more contractors. I just felt like managing people wasn't what I liked to do. What I really liked to do was doing the work with the clients. And that's changed. I, I, I got pretty burned out in, um, 2020 and 2021 and, uh, I now am building a model of. Of, um, expanding the bench of contractors. Um, interestingly, I don't, it, it will shift the kind of work I do. I mean, I will be managing people more and I'm already starting to do that, and, but I think it's a long-term strategy that'll be helpful. So it's really not changing much, especially for the outside world, but it is, it's changing a lot for me in terms of, okay. I no longer am at that point where I could be like, oh, I could say no to all work in July and take the month off. Now the reality is I never did that. I never have done that. Um, but that was always the, the allure of, of being your own boss and not having a lot of people reliant on you. And even though by definition I don't owe contractors anything, uh, there is some expectation if you wanna keep them, if you wanna keep them with you and you wanna make sure that they don't go and get a full-time job somewhere, you need to give 'em enough work. So I, I am pivoting to being more of the manager and, and. Delegating my, my client work to them. And it's weird. Um, there's a part of it, there's a real big ego part of that, Sean, because in the beginning, and I just started doing this months ago, probably May really, and um, you and I were talking August, so just a few months. And the, in the beginning I thought, oh, my clients aren't gonna like that. If they're gonna wanna work with me and how's this gonna work? And I'm gonna really have to get these contractors beefed up to get to a place where they have this trust and credibility and, and connection with my clients. And the good news and the bad news is clients don't seem to care. They're totally happy. So we could say, okay, um, I trained these people well, or I picked them well, but also more. On a, on a realistic term, they just want someone to help them. And as long as the person can help them, they're, they're fine. So I had a real big, uh, ego lesson there around, it's not about me. They really just wanna have the work done. And then in, once I get over the ego part, it's very liberating to be like, okay. I actually could at some point. I don't know if I will, but I could take the whole month of July off someday. Um, and I should rejoice in that idea versus feeling like, oh, I'm not needed anymore.

Sean Weisbrot: I can agree. The feeling of not being needed is strange because I have a COO and I have a CTO and I have a marketing director and a product manager. So they do what they need to do. They know what the vision is, you know, they know the high level, they know the mid-level, they know the low level. They do their job. Yeah. All I need to do is make sure that I can keep having enough money to pay their salaries.

Hope Timberlake: Right, right, right.

Sean Weisbrot: So do you like

Hope Timberlake: that work?

Sean Weisbrot: Uh, dealing with investors has been very frustrating. So not terribly.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: I am excited for when we launch, so I can actually do what I do best, which is like. Getting customers and yeah, taking them onto the platform and, and working with them. Like, I think that's, that's a really fun part that I haven't really been able to do yet with this product.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So, uh, but, but yeah, it's been a while where like I, I used to do the ui, ux and the product management and the project management and on the documentation and the testing and like I did all of it. And even the design, I do none of that now. Yeah. And it's like, yeah. That's, that's one of the reasons why I've put a lot more energy into expanding what I'm doing with this other company because I just have the time for it. It's like, what else am I gonna do with my time? I don't even know.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. It is interesting. I mean, you see this, um, even in company, you know, in, in big organizations where as you move up the ladder, you do less of what you do well and you wind up people managing or project managing, and those aren't necessarily people's skill sets. Um, and an entrepreneur, you're wearing so many hats and all of a sudden you're not doing that thing, that role that makes you. That you're passionate about. Um, and so that can be, that can be interesting, exciting, and the learning experience and can be very frustrating too.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, one of the things I like about this other business is that I'm learning from the start. So like with, with the other company, I had to learn about product management, project management, ui, ux, like I didn't know any of those things. And with this company, because there's none of that, I'm learning about. Like marketing and sales and ads and funnels and community management, like things that I haven't done before. So now it's like learning a whole new. Swath of skillset,

Hope Timberlake: which is, which is probably daunting at times and really cool when you can look back on it. I think that's one of the things that we, you talked about willpower earlier and, and I tie that into endurance as well, and there are times when it's just so exhausting or you feel like you're just constantly pushing and boulder up a hill. And I do like to take stock and just when I'm really feeling frustrated, looking back on the last few months. And feeling like, okay, what have we accomplished? What have I done? What, what has happened? Because forward looking, the whole time isn't necessary, but it's also really overwhelming at times. And if you look back and like, okay, I learned all of these things about community, I learned all these things. You know, in order to build this business, it's so much for, it just fills up your tank in a way that. Looking at the problems ahead, inherently will not.

Sean Weisbrot: I should do that. I haven't really taken the time to stop and and think about what I've accomplished in the last few months because it's definitely a lot. For sure. Yeah.

Hope Timberlake: When you look at your calendar, sometimes I like, I'll look back at my calendar or look at my old emails and then you're like, oh my gosh, what was such a big problem last March? That's like no big deal now and you forget how you've been able to overcome things That felt so big in the moment.

Sean Weisbrot: I actually. Delete everything from the calendar as it happens. As it's done. Interesting.

Hope Timberlake: Okay.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. The only thing I keep is people's birthdays. So like I'll, I'll have different people's birthdays as like a yearly recurring event. That's the only thing I don't delete.

Hope Timberlake: So do you delete these things? 'cause you don't wanna track record?

Sean Weisbrot: No. Google already has it. Even if I delete it, Google will keep it in their service forever. It just, I guess I want to keep my thing clean.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. Yeah. Like your space clean. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: That's my thing. Like if you look at my hard drives, if you look at my desktop, all of it is very clean. Mm-hmm. I've just got a few icons. A lot of this stuff is in the cloud and everything is very neatly, uh, in different folders named properly. Um. Like my receipts for, for my companies, there's like the year 2022 as a folder, and then underneath it is like, uh, 2022 dash zero seven. Right. And that's the folder. And then inside of that, every receipt is like 2022 dash zero seven dash zero five space dash space. The name of the, the thing that's been like.

Hope Timberlake: I'm impressed. I'm really impressed because I've

Sean Weisbrot: dealt with the, with, with the accountants before in auditing. Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes if they don't know what they're looking at, you're making their life miserable. And like for example, I submitted the taxes or the, I've submitted all the accounting for my startup in December, like on December 31st. I had it ready for them for that year. We didn't sign it until June of this year because there were a bunch of things that they had questions about because in the, the first half of last year. Before we got funding, uh, we were using like Bitcoin and Ethereum to pay for things with salaries and software and things like that. And then once we got investment from people, uh, we started using, you know, uh, TransferWise, we were using Singapore dollars in, in US dollars. So they were like, okay, well you've got this thing that you've sent to someone, but like. Where did the money come from? Like I don't see a note that like this money entered. Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work and every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love. So that we can bring you something amazing and every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a, like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show. Now the wallet, like where did it come from that it entered the wallet? It's like they needed all of this information and when we did transfers from crypto to Singapore dollars, then like there wasn't a note about it. It's like it took months to, to sort it all out for them.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, right.

Sean Weisbrot: So,

Hope Timberlake: right.

Sean Weisbrot: And that's with my planning.

Hope Timberlake: I was gonna say, I can only imagine what would happen if you weren't like that. Yeah, it's impressive.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. So. Uh, I've, I've asked this question to a few people before, and I'm curious to see what you would say. I, I don't get the impression that you would've made too big of a mistake here, but I'm curious, what is the most expensive mistake you've made and how much did it cost you? Whether it was, let's say, for example, spending a hundred thousand dollars on a campaign and like it just totally flopped, or, you know, something like that?

Hope Timberlake: Uh. Well, this is more in it, it's related to my business, but it's a personal thing. It just came up recently, um, where I have an individual 401k as part part of my retirement plan, and I had not filed the paperwork. Unlike you, it sounds like, Sean. I'm really, really good at getting things done and executing and working with people. I am not great with all the details. I'm not terrible, but I'm not great and I, I, I. Freeze up when I see form, when I see tax forms, you know, when I see all the like filing and this and that. And so I do have a bookkeeper and I had a, I'm an accountant. I need those things, so I'm not very good at any tax forms. And I had some message coming into my spam folder, which I didn't see. I'm not good at checking that either. And as a result, I did not file an important paper that needed to be filed for this 401k. I did not find out until maybe six weeks ago. That they were going to be charging me, that the IRS would charge me $500 per day of when, um, per day that I had not filed. So the, the filing was due July 31st, a year ago. Apparently at one point I had, I had, um, checked a box for an extension for October 31st. So from October 31st. Until when I paid this, uh, July, whatever, earlier this month or last month, I was supposed to be paying $500 a day. I had to go through this, uh, process of a, of a, um, of a, of a debt forgiveness program, um, through the government to forgive this, um, this fee. But then when I started researching it, this is a brand new thing. The, the 401k thing had I, it had just gone into a, in effect like 2020 or 2021, so excuse my French, but it was total bs. I mean, it wasn't BS 'cause I had to pay this. I had to, I had to pay, I wound up having to pay. I don't know, a couple, uh, maybe a thousand dollars versus like the 500 per day times eight months. Um, but it was one of those things that even though at the end of the day I hadn't lost. The amount of money I could have lost, it was a real wake up call that the decisions I make to grow my business are great, but I also have to do as good of a job at the paperwork, at the receipt holding like you're doing, Sean, at all the filing of forms, because I can be zi dinged so badly for that kind of thing when in fact. It wouldn't take that much. It would take some discipline, but it wouldn't take long for me just to go through, even if I did like every week, what are the different regulatory things? What are the different things in my spam folder? What do I need to be doing with my, um, organization of my finances to avoid a problem like that? Um, 'cause it was really effing scary. I think I owed $500 a day for something for not having submitted. A pretty easy form a year ago.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. That's crazy. I don't have a 401k, so I don't have to go through that. Um,

Hope Timberlake: yeah,

Sean Weisbrot: and the reason why I do all the finance stuff is because the company isn't large enough to be able to afford an accountant. It just doesn't make sense for that salary.

Hope Timberlake: Yep.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. Um, and so part of my hope is like. Yeah. Basically what I've learned about myself is I'm a generalist. I'm really good at learning a lot about a lot of things, but it, it breaks down very fast when I go deep into any subject, right? And so, right. I, as I mentioned earlier, I've learned about the ui, ux and the project manager and the product. I've done all of that, but I didn't do a great job at any of it. And so whenever we hired someone to take over, they inherited a massive mess from me. So my, my goal is to try to do as good of a job as I possibly can and make the person's job as, uh, as. Like less miserable basically when they hi, when I hire them on. So my hope is that when I'm working with an accountant or whoever comes on and deals with the finances, they're not gonna inherit too much of a mess. Like the finances shouldn't be that difficult to do, right? So, right. It's like, if, if I pass anything off to somebody, I hope the, at least the finances are good. I mean, like, I hate to play the card, but like, I'm Jewish after all. You, you think I would be able to handle the finances of something? So

Hope Timberlake: well, we all have our strengths, regardless, regardless, regardless of our heritage or, or how we were raised. But yes, um, yeah, it's a good question though. I mean, uh, I, I, I'm pretty risk averse in terms of, of advertising or some of those things. It's really more me being, um, diligent and responsible with the backend.

Sean Weisbrot: Hmm. Well, you just mentioned advertising, so I'm curious about that. It sounds like. I could be wrong. You probably get the majority of your work from word of mouth.

Hope Timberlake: We do intentionally. For a long time we did not want to grow bigger in terms of we didn't wanna manage consultants and we tried, we'd, we'd, we'd hire some people who would, you know, be head of operations, but then there were just other layers of people. And um, so the idea of advertising wasn't all that interesting because it would bring on more people, but it would change the quality of the type of work we were doing. So it's been word of mouth and it's still, to this day, even as I'm bringing on a binge of people. It's still word of mouth, but the difference is I'm actually tapping into those networks pretty heavily. I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn and, and do some, um, social media things. Some of it's just because of, of goodwill of, of providing interesting content to people. But, um, have, haven't, haven't needed to. Luckily, I mean, we're not trying to grow our business to such an extent that we wanted to have advertiser to advertise to, um, bring on new, new clients necessarily.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I was gonna say earlier you had. Uh, mentioned having these people and kind of trans transitioning your role. And I know we went in a different direction, but I kind of wanna come back to that. Um, from the people that I've talked to who are doing multiple millions a year, they seem to be mostly out of the actual operations and the actual execution of the work being done. And that seems to be the only way that they were able to get there. So I, I feel like. As you find yourself being ready to kind of take that step back, I feel like that will also help you to be able to maybe even 10 x your money, your, your revenue.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. Um, my, or my, my business partner in quotes, um, she is much more open to doing that. I am, I am so at the point where I'm like. You know, we had this lovely life. I don't know if I want that extra headache and that extra stress. Like I, and she really does. She's, um, more driven in a bunch of ways. Um. It is not even necessarily driven. I'm really, really craving other things in my life. Less work oriented, more like getting out. I wanna learn to surf. I've been talking about that for a couple of years now. Still don't know how to do it. You know, there's certain things in my life that I wanna do that it's not even so much that they are expensive in here, like I don't need to travel around the world, although I do love travel. But what I do wanna do is carve out more time in my week. To do things that are off screens. And, um, in order to do that, it feels like it's, um, in conflict with the idea of of, of really double down, you know, dulling down and, um, and, and actively growing the business.

Sean Weisbrot: So the people that I've spoken to that have kind of done this, what they are have a similar mindset of you is like, well, I like where I'm at, but more money is only really going to help me do more of that surfing if I want. Um. So like where, where they reconcile that is having someone who is in charge of the operations.

Hope Timberlake: I could see that we, we actually argue, we just hired someone in May who's really good and I actually could see that it's the first time I've seen that being possible because um, I think we were just hiring, we weren't hiring a hi, I think. Okay. Back to your question about mistakes. We hire people at too low of a rate. And we, um, were in a bind because one of the ones that we'd hired at too low of a rate after four years left. And I'm impressed you stayed that long. And, um, frankly, we genuinely were not thinking that we were hiring too low. Like we didn't, we upped her rate every year. We gave her a bonus, like she never said anything. We check in with her at least twice a, a year, at least twice year. Like these, you know, in depth conversations. What she like, what she didn't like, what'd she need? She never said anything. She, she was, um. She didn't want to open up. And, um, but it was, it was a money thing. And so we, we had to invest a lot more to find her replacement really fast. And all of a sudden you realize, okay, not only sure you pay more, but you get more. And, um, and now I can see, now I can see that. There is that possibility of this, this new person we had running operations really could in fact grow into a role and you could hire the right people to do it. Um, but I think we've been trying to, um, sort of shoot, uh, tape it all together rather than doing real investments in, in, um, in strong, uh, team members.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, we had, we have been in a situation, I'm talking about my startup. Uh, we have been in a situation for the longest time where. If we wanna hire someone, we kind of have to hire someone who like shows us they could maybe get there one day and we have to invest heavily in, in raising them up because we can't afford the person who's already done it.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: Right, right. Like if, like, if we wanted to hire a, a chief marketing officer who's scaled a company from launch to, you know, a million dollars a year in revenue or 2, 2, 5, 10, whatever. That person, especially if they're coming from a country like America, they're looking at a quarter million dollars a year at least with 5% equity. Right. And like, I don't make anything even close to that.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, right. And that's it. Exactly. Right. And it's, it's at, it's at arch. That's not really a science necessarily because finding the person who has that raw material of being able to grow into the role, who wants to grow into the role with you that, um. Is it too green nor too seasoned, but to, to be able to find that right sweet spot of who you need, who can really grow with you as a company.

Sean Weisbrot: Exactly. And so we're hoping that as we get into our next fundraising round, we will be able to have the money to start hiring other people. Like, you know, we might need, uh, A CFO at some point. So like, we would probably just hire someone who has CFO experience rather than hiring like. You know, a financial controller and then teaching 'em how to be a CFO or something like that. So like, but at the same time, we're looking at how we can maybe put aside 50,000, a hundred thousand a year for me and for the CTO and for the c uh, the, the COO and the marketing director and the product manager so that we can all have private coaches so that we can, because. I've never grown a software company to be like a hundred million dollar company. I don't know how to do that. I have to learn, right? Who's gonna teach me? I gotta pay for that, that for that knowledge. You know, my, none of none of us have done this and we're trying to, yeah. And obviously a hundred million from the point of view of a tech company is like a very low number, but it's where we're going, you know? It's just where we have to, where we have to think. And even we have, we should really be thinking like, oh, this could be a $10 billion company,

Hope Timberlake: but we're not

Sean Weisbrot: there yet, obviously. So, um,

Hope Timberlake: next year,

Sean Weisbrot: right? So like when we get there, we have to go, okay, well who should we be hiring to do that? Who, you know, how can we find people that are willing to teach us for maybe only a hundred thousand or maybe only 50,000 a year? Um, 'cause we, we each need our own mentors. Um, have you thought about. That for either yourself, for like where you're heading or for maybe this operations person, like hiring, like a coach.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. No, it's good idea. I, I, um, more the mentor route I've gone through of, you know, people who have been, who are like 10 years ahead of me in the business and I, um, have connected with them on a regular basis and have an active. Colleague network where we, there are about eight of us who are in similar businesses across the, across the us. I don't think anyone's international, well, one of one, well, most of us are in the us and having those type of networking things, not even networking, but um, uh, masterminds, you know, like how do we, how do we solve this? How do we hire for this? How do we, um, meet this need? So I haven't. Hired a coach as you're talking about, but I have really relied on learning and um, and connecting. And what we'd like to talk about is being intellectually curious and intellectually generous. So I'm really happy to share my best practices or my fails with these colleagues and, um, and they do the same. So it's been. Really, really helpful as we were hiring our new operations person in May. As I, as I'm building the bench this, this summer, um, it's been really helpful to have, uh, other people's experiences in my head and, and learn from them.

Sean Weisbrot: How did you find this mastermind and is it something you're paying for? And

Hope Timberlake: we're not paying. No. So, so, um, the, the good news is that, uh, my, um, my business partner, Kim and I both came from a New York based global consultancy called Rogen Si. And there were a bunch of alum from that group. All of us left before the consultancy imploded, probably, I don't know, six years ago. Um, we all left, you know, years before that. So. We didn't immediately stay connected 'cause a lot of us were scrambling to find jobs. And I think in, in theory, we were competitive with each other even if we didn't actually consciously think that we just didn't think to reach out. But in the last five years, we've all been doing our own similar type businesses in different parts of the country and doing well in different nuances, different focus, you know, sort of different, um, slants, um, and. I, I've just been reaching out to them as a group, like, you know, um, have a, a, an email, uh, exchange that happens. We were meeting in person for those who were in the Bay Area, but, um, like COVID changed that. And so the good thing about that is we've started just to do it all online and there's a pretty rich amount of, uh, information that's being shared, but it's not done. We're not paying and it's not done in any kind of facilitated way. But I would say I am other part of other masterminds that are. Paid for and facilitated that I'm, I'm, they're helping me to take on risk or to quiet my inner critic or things of that nature. But this group has been really rich in terms of like, they have been in the trenches doing the exact same thing that I'm doing, and they can be like, here's how it worked and here's how it didn't work. Um, and that's been really valuable.

Sean Weisbrot: Um, I was curious because I started a mastermind when I was in China many years ago, and it fell apart really fast because I picked the wrong people. They, they just weren't at the same point in their mindset where I was, where like, I was actually moving somewhere. I was moving in, I was moving in a direction and they were kind of like, not sure. Um, and then I recently started another mastermind and it lasted for three weeks.

Hope Timberlake: It last, it lasted

Sean Weisbrot: longer than the first one I did in China. And I'm, I'm really like, I, I really wanted to have experience running a mastermind and being a part of a mastermind and I'm still struggling to like, find a way to make it work. And I'm sure the structure was good that the guys told me the structure was good and yet for some reason, uh, one of the guys couldn't make it one week. So I ended up having a call with the other guy and, and during the call he was like, honestly, I kind of just like having a chat with you. He's like, I like the other guy, but like I, there's just something better about this unscripted nonfacilitated. Just kind of like conversation. And, um,

Hope Timberlake: do you still connect with him?

Sean Weisbrot: Well, his son actually just had surgery, so he's been like offline for the last few weeks, so I don't know where he is been, but, um, but yeah, no, we, we ended up doing, uh, so I, I've been learning a lot about cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, cool. Because I thought it could be really interesting just for myself with my background and, you know, to see if I could help other people with it as part of like this company. And so I, I wanted to use him as a Guinea pig because he is got his own issues and I was like, well, maybe I can help you and, and you can help me gain experience and like how to run this kind of therapy. And he was like, yeah, sure. We did like a session or two and then he fell apart. Like he disappeared, you know, because of his son's stuff. So I haven't spoken to him in a few weeks, honestly.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah, keep reaching out. Maybe there's people in Portugal who will be your, your new, uh, mastermind group groupies.

Sean Weisbrot: Well, like this guy, he had started a multiple seven figure a year business and sold it. And then he started another one that was like eight figures a year. So like, um. You know, and, and as I interview, most of the people I interview are doing multiple millions a year. So I like, I like to talk with people like you and them. Like a lot of the people I meet offline, like, you know, if I go out on the street, if I go to some networking event, a lot of them aren't working and thinking at that level. So it's, it's different. Like they're fun, but like they're not thinking like us. So it's a different relationship.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. Yeah. Well you've got all the, you've got all the good raw materials. You've got all the good, um, directional stuff. I think, uh, keep, keep, keep looking, you know, keep, keep your feelers out, out. Open. Feelers out. Feelers out. Yeah. What are the question is

Sean Weisbrot: fair enough? So what has been the hardest decision you've had to make?

Hope Timberlake: Um, a few years back we were approached by another company to be acquired and. I think the hardest part about that wasn't, I think it was getting aligned. I mean, I do have this co-founder, and even though we are not financially obligated to each other, there are a lot of benefits for us staying connected and we've really vacated at different times. She was adamant that we don't do it, and I thought it could actually help us really grow. And avoid some of the operational things. They would take care of the operational piece. This other company wasn't that much bigger, so, but it would, but it would provide the structure and then I go. Colby and then she wanted to go forward. So we balancing that, balancing different personalities and different moments in time. And um, a lot of this business is the relationships that we have with our clients, but also our internal relationships and how we can work in a way that we can still be. Uh, we can still be parents and like we talked earlier about, I mean, it's really parenting. It's like a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot of time. Um, so trying to make those decisions around like strategic growth, um, and we decided that we, we finally aligned and decided that we wanted to stay on our own. And, and we're happy with that decision. In fact, we have a call in two weeks from the same woman from who approached probably three or four years ago who is approaching us about the same thing again. And, uh. Uh, I think we're even more aligned now. We're glad we didn't do it, and I think we're feeling even more sure that that was the right decision. And we won't, we won't, um, take the bait this time either.

Sean Weisbrot: So I'm curious then why you would even take your time to, to accept your call.

Hope Timberlake: Uh, because she we're not sure that that's actually what she wants. There are, we have other, um. We have other similarities in our businesses and we do do other things together. There are times when a client wants a really, a huge number of coaches on site, and so we do, we will have, uh, agreements where we will expand so that we can meet a client's needs and, and she's part of that network. So it's not so much that's a singular goal of this meeting. We just suspect that's what, what, um, she's, she's, she's dropped enough hints along the way, but there may be other reasons that she wants to meet. And it, and it's good to keep this relationship warm.

Sean Weisbrot: When people start off in their entrepreneurial career, sometimes they have a number in their head of like what they want to either earn before they kind of retire or, uh, sell their business. Did you ever have a number?

Hope Timberlake: You know, I didn't. And, um, I think that that is. Sure it's, it's business stupidity. But beyond that, I think that's like a deeper psychology question. It's probably a good one to end on, uh, in that. I think there was that piece of that imposter syndrome of like, oh, who am I to think, or who am I? Like if I can just love this work that I'm doing and get paid well for it, why should I be greedier or, you know, why should I do that? Um, I am positive, I. If you ask my dad, and I have not, and I will if he has number, he definitely did that. He surpassed and, and he's still working, so I'm sure he had, he was very number driven. I am less number driven. I'm really driven by, do I have control over my, my, my world? Um, in terms of like the clients I choose and don't choose and the work type of work I do, and do I have some semblance of balance, whether it's, it might not be in that day or that week or that month, but over the course of the year, do I have some ability to do some things that I wanna do? Um, the money of course is nice, but I've never been solely driven by that. So the. The, that's the long answer. The short answer is no.

Sean Weisbrot: Then what's the most important thing you've learned? And then I'll ask you one more after that.

Hope Timberlake: Yeah. Uh, most important thing I learned is not to feel like I have to do it all myself. Um, and I'm still learning that lesson is to really trust people around you.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. And then what advice do you have for people listening?

Hope Timberlake: Oh my gosh. Don't do what I've done. Like hire people around you, get them to help you. I mean it. Um, the second we did start hiring, like the first time we hired a virtual assistant was, I don't know, probably seven years ago. For a while, Kim and I were just doing everything on our own. And then the second we hired a virtual assistant, our business grew 50%. And it was clear first couple reasons. One, she was finding invoices and things that we hadn't followed through on. Like, you know, really dumb things that that should have been followed through. But we were too busy doing the work. And two, it just freed us up to check in on our clients and say, how's it going? And then that generated more business. So even if it feels scary or expensive to hire, it can often really grow your business. I think that's, I think that's the main thing.