Are You Trapped in the Mental Prison of Being Right?

Sean Weisbrot: Chris Mercer is the co-founder and CEO of measurement marketing, a company that helps brands to measure their marketing, like tracking behaviors, measuring progress of the customer journey and other things. In this conversation we talked about failure. We talked about how I'm struggling with my podcast and where I may take it or may not take it, and many other things. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Chris. This is episode 183. We are getting so close to episode 200. Stick with us. How do you handle failure?

Chris Mercer: It's looking back at what the solutions are that I just put into place. In other words, I've got a problem in front of me, something that I might be perceiving as a failure. I can either try to deal with that or try to deal with what I just did that caused that. So I'll look back at what I just put in place that caused this problem, and I'll rework that solution a lot of times to say, okay, can I maybe solve the previous problem in a different way that gives me a better problem that I'm looking to solve? So that's sort of how I deal with failure.

Sean Weisbrot: But what if it's not possible to do that? What if there is no door backward?

Chris Mercer: It's belief structure. It is always possible to do that. There's always more than one solution to a problem no matter what, regardless of whether or not you're aware of it or see it, it's there. It may not be available immediately to you. Maybe you've gotta talk to some other people who've got some other resources where they can look at it and say, oh, well, here's another way you can solve it. But the second that you go, no, I was absolutely right. You've locked yourself in your own little mental prison because now you have to be right. If you have to believe that you're right, then you have to believe that you're right in the future. And this becomes a very sad, restrictive world at a certain point. So I would say be open to the fact that you probably were wrong on this, which is why you are presented with this opportunity to solve this little puzzle in a new and unique.

Sean Weisbrot: It took me a few years to realize that I was not, I, I thought I could start and run and launch and grow a software company and I was wrong. Uh, and so I found my way back to consulting. But it took years and. It was a very difficult journey. So, uh, I understand that because I, I felt trapped for a long time, for years because I was like, well, I've, I've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars of my own money into this business. Now I've gotten investor money. I can't afford to let them down. I, not only that, but now I've got 15 employees and their families, they're all relying on me. So it's like a lot of pressure consulting. There's no pressure. I have no employees. I have no overhead. I'm super lean. Everything is great. I can answer when I want, not one, and, and not answer when I don't want to. Um, so, and that's,

Chris Mercer: and that's the power of decision, right? Because now you can say, okay, I was trying to do this and I've decided this is not the problem that I want. I don't want a problem of how to build a huge company. I want a problem of how to be financially free, have the control over my own life, have the flexibility that I thought this other. Type of business was going to give me, so instead you solved it in a different way. Instead of, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur with a big giant team doing sas. You're like, Hey, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur on my own as a consultant. Because that solved the problem. It gave you a better problem to solve, right? Once, once that solution came into place. That's kind of an example of, that's backing up and saying, you know, I shouldn't try. To get this, just because I decided I wanna do a SaaS company doesn't mean that you have, you had to be right about that and that that's what, that's what I mean by that. Dogness sort of going up against the brick wall. Well, I decided this yesterday, so I must have been right. Therefore, I cannot think about anything else. I have to solve this problem I currently have. And in reality, you probably don't. Right? And that, and what you just went through was a perfect example of that. You sort of backed up and you said, listen, lemme solve this entrepreneurship bug in a different way. And it presented you with a much better solution. You know, something that's got, that has all the flexibilities you have obviously comes with its own sette of, of set of challenges. But ones that you are more suited for, right? Ones that are ones that are more useful for you.

Sean Weisbrot: Now I'm currently facing this thing where. This interview is 183. Most people would say it's a very successful podcast despite the small size of the audience. Still at this point, after three and a half years. I originally started the podcast when I was in the process of, uh, building the software company with the goal of using the software company as the purpose for the podcast. Meaning by talking with people like yourself, I can learn how you run your business. I can learn what your experiences have been, and maybe I can maybe make less mistakes that I would've made if I didn't have that information from after talking to you. Where the hope was when the software had launched, I'd be able to promote the software to the audience and to the guests because it was a B2B SaaS. Uh, you know, it's been over a year and a half since that company failed, and it was only really 4, 5, 6 months ago that I started to redo consulting. And I've struggled for the last six months with what to do with the podcast because the consulting I'm doing is for e-commerce. But the podcast has spent all this time talking about, you know. It's kind of e-commerce and that it's bootstrapped to profit and, you know, not really needing investors and how to grow and do operations and, uh, sales and marketing. But the focus was never on e-commerce because I never talked about it before with, with, uh, guests had maybe only a few episodes that focused on, you know, uh, paid ads or, uh, you know, marketing, sales, affiliate marketing, these kinds of things. And so the thing in my mind now is. It. You know, not to say the podcast is a failure or that I'm a failure, but really is there a future for the podcast? And if there is, how do I make it something that can be more of a success, something that's more in line with what I'm doing while still enabling me to have these great conversations? Because. A lot of the eCommerce brands I come across, they have very lean operations. They have only a few employees, and their supply chain is quite simple. So a lot of the things that I've talked about with the guests is not really relevant to them. And so I'm, I'm struggling in that regard. Maybe it's not failure, but as I've. Found myself realizing that I'm not a Sass CEO or a VC backed CEO like I thought I wanted to be. That was kind of a failure in my mind, and so I'm trying to figure out how to move myself forward while hopefully not losing the podcast. In the same, you know, considering it a failure and being able to, I don't know, I'm just rambling, I guess. Right.

Chris Mercer: No, I get it. So it's like you've, you've put all this effort into this one particular thing, right? All this, all this energy and all this, all this love into building this thing that you thought was a puzzle piece, right? This foundations for this other brand, now this other brand's not there. So it's like now you're kind of coming down to this saying, okay, well I was producing this for this one reason. It doesn't, that one reason's not gonna happen anymore. We know that right. Path A is closed. We've decided to go down path B. What else can we do with this is kind of what I'm, what I'm hearing you saying. Um, there's a, there's a couple things that, that are coming up to me as I'm thinking through it. One is just the, uh, the power of what I call a useful belief. Um, I think one thing that is fascinating about human psychology in general. Is the power of belief, it does not at all need to be true. Uh, I think you know, a lot of, a lot of, no matter where you look in the world on tribalism, right, you can see that people believe beliefs that are not actually objectively true. It doesn't matter, right? Yeah. They will believe that no matter what. But that's because that belief is useful to them, useful in a lot of cases because it gives them access to an identity which gives 'em access to a bigger, uh, group of people that they can feel. Good about right? And build relationships and feel connection to which is something that's desperately lacking in the world. So this is sort of where the brain's overcompensating right in, in my opinion on that. It's doing that, but it's a useful belief. So instead of going, okay, well I have to believe true or whatever, I just go, just think about useful stuff. So is the belief useful? If it is, I'll keep it. And if it's not, if it's not generating an action or a direction that I want to go, then I will really question that and say, well, just 'cause it was useful up until this point doesn't mean it still is, and I'm willing to let go because I'm willing to be wrong. I'm willing to be wrong, meaning I made a wrong decision yesterday to keep this belief. Maybe yesterday is when I should have gotten rid of it. So I always sort of question that to try to filter things through. For me, it keeps things flowing in terms of thoughts and beliefs that I have asked. So I have access to the most useful thoughts and beliefs for this moment, not for yesterday's moment, right? So when you're, when you're talking about the podcast, like if it were me in that situation. And it has been in different areas, right? Whether it's a certain, you know, brand I was building for a certain reason, for like an email list or something that didn't quite work out, you know, and kind of had to pivot or go a different direction. Two things. One is I would reach out to the audience of your podcast and I would say, listen. Here's what I was trying, here's my story, right? What do you, what do you think? Where do you think we should go? What's the best service for you? Those listeners that are there. So occasionally that connection can pop something back. It may not, but I would try it anyway because they might come back with, Hey, I really appreciate it. It's funny you say that because 90% of this stuff I'm kind of into, but really this 10% is what I love and and you might look at that and say, oh my gosh, that's actually the 10% I love too. Let's just do that. And maybe it simplifies the podcast into a specific message that can break out in the market. 'cause now it's easier to talk about what the podcast is about, right? If it's, if it's about, you know, psychological success for entrepreneurs, there's a huge market for that. There's a lot of entrepreneurs that, that need that, right? If it's psychological success for entrepreneurs who have ad you know, the a DD still style entrepreneur who's desperately trying to figure out how to be a systems person. 'cause they know they can, they need to operationalize, but they don't like operations and they're not big enough to yet. Have somebody that can do operations 'cause that you sort of steal, have to prep the systems for that. Maybe that's the podcast, a little niche here, but a whole lot more focus and you're gonna have raving, you know, potentially raving fans that really understand that. So I would start with that because what I'm, what I'm trying to do in my head, if it's my situation is I know I have a log jam. The log jam is, I, I know my situation, I agree with my situation, I can see the problem. I looked at the solution that I, they enacted the podcast to create for this other brand, but my problem is the other brand is gone. What else can I do with this podcast? And I consider all options. I could shut it down. I can just stop, right? That's fine. Or I could keep going. That's the first step. Well, if I'm gonna keep going. What I need to do something different, and I've already spun my head up into a thousand different solutions. If I knew the answer, I would've already taken action. So I don't know the answer, therefore, reach out to somebody else, get some help. And you're doing that now with the podcast with me technically. Right? Right. You're sort of bouncing ideas off of me doing this. You could do the same thing with the audience. So this is already you starting to do that sort of mentality to break up and go, wow, I never really thought about it like that. And it just takes one of those thoughts, like I've, I have a big useful belief that says. The solution is in front of you. It doesn't matter if you cannot see it or if you cannot perceive it, it is there. You just sort of have to have faith. It's there because the second you go there are no solutions. You're disempowered, right? You've disconnected your battery. So I wanna make sure I always stay in the most empowered, useful belief. It doesn't matter if it's true, right? It doesn't matter. I have to believe it. Because it's useful belief to be like there is a solution there. And the way that I think about it in my head, and I wish I knew that this, the technical name for these things, but do you ever see like, there's like graphic images where they might have like a, a sort of a bunch of like hanging pieces that are in the air and they sort of twist around and all of a sudden they form a word, right? And then those little pieces will start to twist in the air, like a, you know, collage or something. And then they sort of just, you know, like, I'm sorry, mobile, that's what I'm thinking of. Like these little mobiles where they're, these pieces that'll be in the air, but if they twist in a certain way, they will spell out a word. And it's like, that's how I see solutions. I mean, it looks random and then all of a sudden the pieces come together, a word forms, and I'm like, that's it. That's the thing I'm looking for. So I'm gonna, what I'm gonna try to do is get those pieces to move. I'm gonna get the mobile to twist around so I can read the word. And again, I'm gonna take actions that I know I can take. Like, you know, maybe reaching out to the audience and saying, Hey, pot, just doing a whole podcast on what this is. And saying what your problem is and say, I'm reaching out to you. Lemme know. Send me an email. I'm always curious, what are you going through? You might connect with somebody that one thought they fire back goes, ah, this is a whole other direction. You know, and you can take it from there. Yeah, and it might even lead to an to another business or an extension of the current one. You know, that you've got,

Sean Weisbrot: unfortunately, the audience isn't very large and I don't have a way to connect with them other than like YouTube comments, which, okay, the comments I got on YouTube are weird.

Chris Mercer: But you're connecting. You're connecting now, right? So because you can connect you, you are connecting with them, you have a way. I agree. Okay. An email list. Okay. But then you go, should probably start getting an email list. So start building that connection. 'cause it could be an asset for you, you know? Um, and then reaching out on YouTube, like I said, you can use YouTube comments and see it's not gonna be perfect and it's not the only thing that I would say, you put all your eggs in one basket, but it's like, okay, try this out. You know? In the meantime is look at the guests you've had. Reach out to your past guests and tell them the issue that you're running into. You've got this network, right. It's why you built it. Yeah. So reach out to them too and say, Hey, listen, I, you know, you interviewed me, you know, I interviewed you about a year and a half ago. We talked about this, this, and this. I was just listening to that episode again, you know, here's where I'm currently am. Was wondering if you, you know, had any advice on what you might do. In this situation, and you've got all these guests who I assume are experts in their own way, that can also help you. You know, not everyone's gonna respond, but all you're looking for is something that, to jog your, your own log, you know, to break that own log jam of thought in your head because you can't see the obvious solution. 'cause if you could, you would take it, right? You would take action. So that's kind of how I think about it.

Sean Weisbrot: I think the, the thing that would like, I, I love having these conversations. I think they're very therapeutic for me. I think they're fantastic mentorship, basically. But I think what makes it appealing to me is if I know there's a way that it will generate leads from my business. And I've talked to some friends about that and they're like, yeah, but if your goal is very specific in that, then like you're not gonna be doing it because you love it. You're doing it to to have business. And it's like, yeah, well the thing needs to make money. I'm spending a thousand dollars a month to keep the podcast going between my two employees and. And the software and all that. So the thing's gotta, you know, I've gotta make, I've gotta generate money through the business to be able to pay for it. Um, and so, like, I ha I did an interview recently with someone who has nothing to do with like e-commerce, however, she happens to be invested in a business that is doing e-commerce. And so she's setting up an introduction with me. So like That's great. And like, I know you and I have talked about this as well off air. Yep, yep. So it's, it's cool, you know, um, so it's, I think that's maybe what the, the purpose is, is how to. Make it more relevant to e-commerce in a way so that people are interested. But I've, I've always found it to be something like, oh, I've got a podcast, and be like, oh, you've got a podcast. That's great. What's it about? Oh, entrepreneurship and psychology. Oh, it's amazing. Like, lemme know about it. So it's kind of like a social proof in a way. It's like, oh, I'm, mm-hmm. You know, I'm, trust me, because you can see my face, you can hear my voice. I'm not hiding anything. I've got, you know, social media profiles. So I think if anything, there's like value in just continuing it for the purpose of having social proof. Um. Because I, I've had some people come to me and go, oh yeah, that's really great. Like I, I, I feel good about it and I like your content. You seem like a knowledgeable guy. So I think if nothing else, uh, just continuing it is success. Like very, very few podcasts go beyond 10 episodes. So the fact that I'm closing in on hundred already speaks volumes for it. Um, but audience wise, it's just not seeing the growth that I thought it would. And that's. I think something that kind of frustrates me in a way, which also gives me pause.

Chris Mercer: Yeah. And that, well, that goes back to why the podcast is there, you know, so I, I've got a similar situation with a podcast that we have, uh, with a, a part of mine, Jeff Sauer, um, called Business Unfiltered. And, and it's where there's the two of us we're geeking out on how to be operationally focused. Right? How, how do you actually run a business? To the point where it's generating profit and you're doing it in a way that it's simpler and easier Right. Than, than a lot of the stress that we see in a lot of business systems today. So we've been doing that for a year. In our heads we're like, this is a three year thing. Like, we'll look back in three years and figure out if it's, you know, what the next steps are right. At that point. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm already projecting to literally be where you are right now. Like, that's part of our plan. Right. Our, our plan was never like, oh, it's gonna hit, you know, a million. 'cause the odds of that, it's possible. It's not probable. So I, so I don't wanna set myself up with these unrealistic expectations that I'm gonna walk through the airport and everyone's gonna recognize my photo if I personally wouldn't want that. You know, I don't, I don't like that particular, I like being famous in very small ponds, um, type of thing, you know? Um, but I think with the podcast, like you're saying, you don't wanna stop it, you know that you're getting something from it, and maybe that's enough. I would focus on that, like what are the good things you're getting from it? Because I think it kind of goes a little bit to the, you know, a little woo woo with the law of attraction stuff, but it's just like, it's dealing with appreciating what you are getting from it. So you get more from it. If you keep noticing all the bad stuff, you just end up getting more of the bad stuff you know, that you don't want from

Sean Weisbrot: it.

Chris Mercer: So that's where it's like, Hey, I really appreciate the connection that I've got with these types of entrepreneurs. And now you start realizing when you look at all your guests, maybe you rank 'em. Which are the ones that were really amazing for you or, or that you, you know, or that you got really great feedback on if you did from somebody. And it's, okay, these are the things that I really want now, you know, a better guest to go after, right? And then eventually you can maybe do a summit as an example. You'd be like, Hey, I'm gonna play my podcast episodes. We're gonna do a summit. Now you can start building an email list where you feature all these different podcasts and you can kind of drip 'em through because there's different things you can do with the assets that a podcast gives you. But if you don't think. If you won't allow yourself to think creatively because you, you know how to do it right. And that's the trick is you always, I always in my head, I'm like, I, I believe I know how to do it, but I'm open to other ways, right? Mm-hmm. And that's why I'm trying to break the log jam. So like for me, I go to the summit where I'm like, okay, well I've got all these interviews. What else do people do with a bunch of interviews? Well, they put summits out. Okay, maybe I could do that. You know, and again, not saying you should just. That's a different way to think. Okay, I could do that. Maybe I, maybe these assets that are just sitting out there floating in cyberspace, they are actually useful still in a different way. There were podcasts now, but they could be this thing otherwise, you know, or turn into something else where you could just reach out to the speakers, Hey, I'm gonna be doing a new summit. Here's what we're gonna focus on. We're gonna focus on entrepreneurship and psychology, and you're gonna start building a brand in the list around that, that actually feeds the podcast. You could do a, you know, the podcast could sponsor the summit. You know, now you're growing your podcast listenership. Through the fact your podcast brought in all these, all these connections to speakers right now, you can reach out to everybody. Say, listen, can you gimme 30 minutes on a summit? You record 'em all like you're doing now, right? Could use the same tech so it doesn't cost you anything else. You're just throwing a up on a site and now you've got an offer where the speakers might mail for you. So now you can have a list build under whatever this brand is for you. That's, and that's just if you wanted to focus on the podcast, let alone connecting it into the other consulting stuff. But of course you could have your own talks on the consulting end of things, right. So there could be a way that you could use that network and the connection that you've made. And that's, that's kind of where I would focus is the answer doesn't always have to come from within you. You know, it's okay to be lucky. It's okay to have the obvious answer come from someone else where they pointed out and you're like, oh my gosh, it was right in front of me the entire time. How could I not see that? Because a lot of people try to beat themselves up. I should have been better. I should have picked that up. It's like, no, you shouldn't have, you couldn't have, mm. They brought the other half of the key, right. You just had gibberish on your end. They had gibberish on their end. It's when the two of you connected that you were both able to see it, right? They could never have seen it as simply without you there, and you could never have seen it until they pointed it out. And that's the point, you know, the, the two sides, it was gibberish. Everyone thinks like, uh, you know, they try to beat themselves up over that. Don't, you know, be lucky. Be okay with that.

Sean Weisbrot: I have a few friends that I talk to about these kinds of things and they'll give me advice very bluntly, which I appreciate. And then maybe a few months later I'll come back around and I'll tell them like, oh, I'm gonna do this. So like, yeah, I told you that months ago. I was like, yeah, I know. But it took me time to like put the pieces together in my head.

Chris Mercer: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And be okay. And again, it's, it's be okay with that, right? Everything in their own time. It's like if you try, you know, it's the old thing. If you try to open a flour for it, you know, you don't wait for that flower to unfold, but you try to peel apart the petals, it's not gonna work. You try to take a caterpillar out of its shell before it's ready, it's not gonna work. Same thing with the bird. Eggs not gonna work. It needs to come out when it's ready, you know? And I think being okay with that and accepting that and being like, this just isn't. Cooked quite yet. It's not ready. You know, maybe, and that's how else do you cook where it's like, okay, you can start journaling about it. You could start a podcast where you're talking to people about it, right? And that's, that's where you're cooking the thoughts a little bit and mixing them around. So I, I don't think there's anything wrong with that

Sean Weisbrot: at

Chris Mercer: all.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. That's why I found the podcast really helpful is because I started it like August of 2019, I think. And so that was a few months before COVID, but I already was feeling quite lonely because I was working remote from my team and we were doing this thing that I had never done before and it was really stressful just itself. The podcast was an outlet for me to be able to talk to people that had already been running businesses. 'cause like I, I'd had experience running businesses and uh, then a consulting one before that was quite successful. But. I had never built something that had a full-time staff of that size. I had managed several businesses of other people that that other people owned of that size and larger. But it's different when you start it and you grow it, and you run it yourself. Definitely it's, it's different. Totally different feeling. Yep. And because I had never done it before, I was literally using the podcast to ask people that were running businesses of, you know, larger size, that were doing millions of dollars a year in revenue. How the hell do you, like, not die in the process of doing this thing? How do you, how do you suffer this on a daily basis? This is something that you enjoy doing. Would you do it again? Like, how do you do your sales? How do you do your marketing? What is the process like? So. So the podcast has been an absolute masterclass for me talking to, you know, I've only recorded this is the hundred 83rd episode, but I've had many conversations, you know, at least one or 200 additional conversations that were never recorded. Um, so hundreds and hundreds of hours. That's fantastic of talking to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Uh, I feel like I've learned so much about being a, a business owner and an investor and a mentor and, and a leader in all different realms of business because of the podcasts and that, I think part of that is one of the things that's like preventing me from wanting to put it down because I feel like it's been so helpful for me in many ways,

Chris Mercer: and probably helpful for others too. I think there is that one. Like I think a lot about this, um, because, 'cause a while, years ago I used to do foster care, uh, me and my wife. And the reason we stopped doing, and we did it for years. Um, but the reason that we stopped was because I realized I. I would have a, a connection, too much of an emotional connection to all the foster kids, right. That were there. Mm-hmm. And fortunately, we had one that was about, uh, in, in house for about 18 months. Right. Says he's the one I had the strongest connection with. We had him from eight to 10. So when he went back to his mom, like that was crushing for me. And I was like, I can't, I, there's no way I can do this. Like, I would love to be that person, but I think I need to be a different type of person. I need to be able to disconnect emotionally faster. Um, and I just didn't want to be that person. Nothing wrong with people who are. Right. God bless 'em, that they can get, they can get all this stuff done. I couldn't, so I was like, this isn't good enough for me. But I wanted the reason that we were thinking with, with him and it was like, you know, maybe, maybe we can connect with his mom a little bit. And fortunately to her credit, she's been great. And so we're now we've sort of play like the grandparents role. I. Right. Um, and we still will still in in connection with him as he goes through his challenges. Um, but the, the whole point of this was, all I kept thinking in my head was like that starfish story and a little joke where it's like the little kid's walking down the beach and he's like throwing hundreds of these starfish that are washed up and little kid's like throwing 'em in and some person's walking by and going, kid, what are you doing? Like, you're, you're, there's no way you're gonna save all these starfish. And they throw kid, throw the starfish, throws it back and say, yeah, but I saved that one. Like I made a difference to that one. And I think when it comes to the podcast, and it's certainly like this on my podcast, right? For, for the business unfiltered one, it's thinking about, it's not about getting 12 million people to hear it. It's about getting that one person that goes, that just changed my life. I will never think the same way again because of the interaction that I just had with that messaging, however it was supposed to be, right? Um, even, and this is kind of the beauty of it. Again, useful belief, right? Even if I'm that person. So if I'm talking to Jeff and he says something in a way that I've never heard it, I go like, man, that's, that's, I've never heard it like that. You're okay. That's, that's cool. I might have to integrate that. You know, and he does the same thing with me. I. So already we've set up the game of podcasting, so it's more successful, we're more likely to succeed because that's why we're doing it, is for ourselves to have that conversation. Mm-hmm. And the fact that we get people emailing us saying, wow, I really appreciate how you guys talked about blah, blah, blah, blah. We hadn't thought about it like that. And it's like there's, I just broke the log jam for them. And, and it was a, not me, they did, but they used our, our messaging to do that. And to be a, a part of that experience for them is amazing. Right. And one starfish at a time. And eventually, if it is meant to be, and the podcast does blow up into something bigger, you know. Awesome. But

Sean Weisbrot: hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of we're, and every week we you a new guest and a new story, and what we do requires so much love. So that we can bring you something amazing and every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a, like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show. Now,

Chris Mercer: already I've, I'm successful at the level that I want to be at because I, I, because we can control the game, we can control the rules of the game, we literally write the rules of the game. I just made the rules easier to win for me, right? Mm-hmm. As opposed to making these unrealistic rules and judge myself against Joe Rogan. It's like, why would, why would you ever do that? Right. We're entrepreneur on fire, any these other ones that came out, pat Flynn. Right. It's like, why would I do that? So, because they're, they're very different. They're very different journeys. I'm on mine and I control my game, not theirs, you know, and they have different rules now. Right. I'm sure that, you know, Pat's got different challenges that, that he's running into now. He's, uh, kind of taking his, his, uh, podcast up and over.

Sean Weisbrot: And I think the problem is when you. Get into that rut where you're comparing yourself. You're not comparing yourself to when they were on their 50th episode. Exactly. You're comparing yourself to their 1200th episode.

Chris Mercer: Yeah. He

Sean Weisbrot: is like, how can you possibly do that? That's not fair.

Chris Mercer: Yeah, and and honestly, I would still say be careful that 'cause look at entrepreneurial fire. He grew really fast. Right? He grew really fast, but that was because he was a different podcast for a different time. He was the, he was tackling entrepreneurship, which a lot of people were at that time, but he was doing it daily and that was his big thing, right? When, when he did that, it was like, Hey, I'm gonna launch every day. Well now that's, there's lots of podcasts to launch every day. He was a different podcast for a different time. You can't take that same recipe that he used back then and then use it today. You know, it's different. Right. And, and so it's like, I can't, I can't judge myself against his, his actions ever. Right. I, I can use it as inspiration and know things are possible. But I can't do it the exact same way, so I wouldn't try.

Sean Weisbrot: Not only that, but the earlier you would've launched something, the more likely you would've been to found success because there were less people doing it. That's exactly right.

Chris Mercer: Same thing with Go the Google ads. People who were like, oh, I'm gonna do this new thing called Google Ads that Google came out with. Or when Facebook finally starts releasing paid media, right? Everybody in their in their brother goes into this to try to do paid media. 'cause it's easy. It's like shooting fish in a barrel and then it gets more and more expensive. And this is what happens every time. You know, with, with the newness of it, the first person to build an email list, right, to send out eBooks and now the first person to figure out retargeting to do that, right? The first person to figure out Facebook groups made a ton. But if you do a Facebook group today, you know, the odds are, the odds are against you. It's just because the, the market shifted and that's okay. The goal is not to, to, for me, it's looking at the trends and patterns. It's not to take. What was working five years ago and try to apply it today is to learn from how it was working five years ago and try to figure out how can I apply that today and, and translate it for where the situation I'm currently in with the market that I'm currently in. With the tech I'm currently in, ai, for example, huge right now. Right. So you, you, you doing a podcast thinking about, okay, how else can I get this podcast done that might not take as much monetary resources if, if that's a drain, could you use AI for some things? Right. If there are ways to simplify it, maybe I tried, right? So I, I tried doesn't, I had a,

Sean Weisbrot: doesn't mean it's not a solution. Doesn't mean it's not a solution. Just means that particular way didn't work. Mm-hmm. Right. Not, you didn't try everything, I guarantee you that. 'cause there's always something else. So the one particular way didn't work. There's other ways to do it. I, I can tell you, I don't, I don't spend hardly any on mine. Um, but that's, that's because happy accident, I, I kind of, my first job was in radio and broadcast, so I learned commercial editing so I can edit. You know, there's a free software called Audacity. You guys clip. I literally, we record the podcast. I clip off the edges. I publish it, I save it, and that's it. You know, it's not, and it just, and the rest of it's automated once it goes to the feed. But, but, um, but we record it in that way. Right? I don't get too fancy on the edits on purpose, you know? Um, and then that was the idea is just focus on the messaging, getting it out and doing it in the simplest possible way.

Sean Weisbrot: So my first a hundred episodes we're audio only. And I used Audacity. I edited all my episodes myself. I, I don't have a commercial experience as you do, but I taught myself to the best of my ability. Yep. And I felt I did a pretty good job, but it took a few hours per, per episode was a lot. Um, when I moved to video, I taught myself how to do video editing, especially because I had two tracks like I do now. Um, but I knew that I couldn't focus on growing my business. If I was spending time doing editing and all of that for the podcast, so I hired someone to do the longform editing, and then I hired another person to do the short form editing, and that's the bulk of the cost of the podcast. So, uh, the reason why I have the shorts form editors, because that's really where you get the traction on YouTube these days. Unfortunately, the long form, uh, content. They don't really push that so much as they do shorts now. So my shorts gets a lot of content. Uh, it gets a lot of views, gets like many, many multiples of the views that my l my, my interviews get. But the shorts come directly from the interviews and so I have my long form editor and my short form editor working together to make sure that the right clips are being done and that they're, you know, there's music and there's animation and there's subtitling and all of that. The point where I tried to use AI was to replace the shorts editor because there's a number of generative AI solutions, Opus

Chris Mercer: clips, things like that. Yeah,

Sean Weisbrot: right. I was using Opus and I was very happy with it. But what happened was when I started uploading those videos to YouTube, my shorts views dropped to five or 10 per video where the human doing all of the work, I was getting 500 to 10,000 views per video per short.

Chris Mercer: Love that.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. So for me to spend a few hundred dollars a month instead of like 15 or 20 meant complete difference in the traction that I got

Chris Mercer: in the results.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, absolutely. It was worth it. So, yep. I had this guy, I let him go to use the AI tool and I got rid of the AI tool and I hired him back and we're still working together after another. That's awesome. It's been probably fine. I'm sure he's laughing right now, going as he's editing this one going, yeah, absolutely. Human wins. That's cool. Right. So I've, I've tried AI in a few, in, in at least one of those ways, and I found that it's just not up to snuff because it can, it can do the subtitle, it can, it can do the rote memorization, right? It can do that, that rote task. It can generate a clip that it thinks might be interesting. It can do the subtitling, it can do the music and the emojis, but only a human has the ability to understand the emotional context behind why that clip is being generated, and that's where the AI fails.

Chris Mercer: Yep. So, yeah, no, I agree. I agree with that. Like I'm not a big, you know, just throw AI on everything 'cause I think that is a huge mistake 'cause AI does generate generic, I. You know, 'cause it's being, it's, and that's what it's, that's what's already happening. They've got ai, you know, language models that are being trained on the results of other AI language models, you know, and everything just kind of becomes a race to the bottom at a certain point. So, I'm a huge fan of having humans where you can, you know, it's gotta make sense, you know, for you from a, from a financial standpoint, right? Because it's, it's like, okay, I'm putting this money in. What is the result I'm trying to get out of it? So you'd still, as an entrepreneur, wanna be able to connect those dots. Why am I spending a thousand bucks a month? It can't just be for maybe, maybe it is, maybe it is just for therapy. That's probably cheaper than therapist. You know, if you were sitting a therapist's couch. So that could be a way where your ROI in that

Sean Weisbrot: if I just wanted to do the podcast for the therapy and not for actual traction and growth, I would just go back to doing audio.

Chris Mercer: Yeah, that

Sean Weisbrot: makes sense. And it would literally, that's true. You wouldn't, wouldn't need the video.

Chris Mercer: Yep, yep,

Sean Weisbrot: yep. But, but I believe that I. It's possible to get traction on YouTube. I mean, I, when I started doing the shorts clips, I had 60 subscribers and I have 450 now. And I know that the first thousand takes forever to get, unless you're doing these crazy meme videos where they're putting multiple videos on top of each other. You know, you've got like someone playing a video game while someone's talking and they're so, you know, it's like these kinds of ones they. They're, they go viral very easily. Mm-hmm. So if you're actually doing proper educational things, then it grows slower because it's not viral, it's not, you know, meme. So YouTube isn't gonna push it out as, as hard as it will these other things. So, um. So I, I believe, you know, once I get to that thousand, there's, there's just something, I mean, maybe it's, it's not gonna feel as good as I think it's gonna feel, but, uh, I feel like it's, it's worth the investment because,

Chris Mercer: well, and you have a website for the podcast?

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, I actually episodes. I spent a few thousand dollars to rebrand and redesign the entire website. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to update the podcast on there. The last one that's visible on the website is 114, so I'm about 70 something off. But, uh. I have to, like, I, I decided not to keep putting it out because I knew I was gonna do a redesign. And so I was like, what's the point in going and publishing all this content just to redesign every blog post? Um, so yeah, I have to get on that. I may hire someone to do it for me. Yeah, whatever works.

Chris Mercer: Yeah, exactly. And it's, but, but it's, you know, this is where maybe the AI stuff can come in. You can throw the transcripts into Claude and have, you know, Claude, summarize it right, or chat to be D four, because I think they've got bigger limits now where you can throw in the podcast and have it summarize, you know, now you've got a little PDF that you've got a book that somebody can, you know, it doesn't have to be pretty. At all. Right? It just needs to be useful for the market. And so you can have that little pdf DF on a blog post now where it's like, Hey, subscribe, you know, and, and grab this PDF and you can, if you want a copy of this transcript, people will do that. Now you can. Now you have a way to build a list. Is it the best possible offer ever? Probably not, but at least there's a doorway now into a list that you know, we need to build. 'cause you wanna have a connect, you want them to be able to connect with you and vice versa, right? I feel like the only potential reason for that. The only

Sean Weisbrot: reason. I feel like the only reason to build a newsletter or to build an email list, 'cause I did a newsletter, which also grew, but I, I felt no reason to continue. Um, I feel like an email list would only be valuable if they were e-commerce brand owners, people that would come to me looking for help and yeah, so, so focus on that market. And that's where the disconnect is between the podcast and the client base. I, I'm getting tons of leads. That's not a problem. But having the podcast generate leads would be fantastic. But the podcast content and the people I'm serving, there's a disconnect. And that's where I'm, I'm trying to figure it out where, like I said, I can talk with the guests and have them be refers. You've got a number of clients that potentially could be clients of mine, which is where there is value in making the, the guests be potential clients or or referrals partners to work with. Absolutely. Yep. But you know, if I can grow an audience of 10,000, a hundred thousand million, whatever, and they're coming to me as potential leads would also be fantastic.

Chris Mercer: That's just the branding, right? That's just the, that's just, that's just marketing of the, of the message now. So it's not the podcast itself, it's how you pitch the podcast, right? So even this talk, we're talking about, you know, psychology of failure and how to deal and, and, and get unstuck in all these different conversations. So instead of just like, you know. Psychology of failure, how to get over entrepreneurship, failure, blah, blah, blah. It's, it's more tweaked for the e-commerce audience. So you're like, Hey, if you've been running your e-commerce store and you, and you've, and you're throwing up on Shopify, and then it's just crickets, you know, you, and you start questioning yourself, and then you start to see somebody else who has less talent than you, that's going further ahead faster, and then you start to question yourself. In this episode we're gonna talk about how e-commerce store owners, like you can deal with failure and, and some different tools and techniques and different ways of thinking, but now all of a sudden you're talking to an e-commerce store owner. They're able to share it with their friends, probably other e-commerce store owners, 'cause everybody hangs out together. Right, and, and that's how you're pitching the podcast for that particular market, if that's the market you want. But if you keep throwing it out there to see where it's gonna go, it's like, it's like scattering seeds to the wind. Some of them are gonna plant 'cause they end up in decent dirt, but it might not be dirt. You own might be the neighbor's lawn. Some of it might end up in sand. Where you would never have planted them, but because you sort of randomly let it happen. So, and, and that's the, I'm a big believer in getting started for sure. Like, I'm, I'm like, Hey, get good enough to get going. We'll come back and make a better letter. Or later, right, and you've done that, you've got this good enough to get going podcast. And now you've determined, okay, I wanna connect the podcast with e-commerce. And all that is, is just telling them that's, that's all you now. So you just tell them, here's how it connects to e-commerce. And that's, and I bet you most of your topics have some sort of spin because you do talk about psychology so much. That's just the how an e-commerce owner goes through it. Now, could you have also said consultant, freelancer, something else? Absolutely. But that's not your market. So you don't wrap it like that. You wrap it with e-commerce because now you've got the SEO stuff, especially if you're, you're sprinkling that through the transcripts right now. You've got your transcripts out on their, on your blog post being written. You've got, it's for e-commerce owners, right, to help the psychology, the psychological success. Mentality that you need to have as an e-commerce store owner through the various levels. 'cause you're gonna talk to individuals like me who don't necessarily have e-commerce stores, but understand business, right? And have got relationships. And that's, uh, it's certainly a part that you need as an e-commerce store owner. You're gonna have other people that are just starting out and how they got started and got out of their own way to actually get the store up and running. And you're gonna talk to people who have. Experience and they're doing $15 million and they've been doing that for seven years and they've built a team and those belief systems, you know, and you can talk to everybody through those journeys in this podcast, not only does it help you learn and grow, but you're able to report back to the marketplace, right? And not everybody listens to the podcast that's gonna wanna do business with you, but if you're the authority over and over again that they keep returning to. They're going to help, they're gonna naturally start bringing other people to you because you, because you are helpful. Right? And then when and if, and when the time is ready where they're like, ah, actually maybe you should talk to this guy. 'cause I feel like I'm, you know, I'm stuck right now in this one section and I know he is got a lot of connections to, you know, what's going on with China right now. And, and you know, we've been looking at other places and I'm not quite sure what to do. Let's talk to 'em. And they jump on a discovery call. Now you've got, you know, that next stage they've engaged with your brand, right? And the whole reason that they can is because you laid out the path. You know, if you let the market try to figure stuff out, it will take them longer and it'll take you longer. But if you, if you pitch them and say, Hey, how about this, how about if I put the door on this side of the building? And they go, well, no, not really, because I have to walk around. You're like, okay, cool, I'll, I'll, how about I put the door in the front of the building and they go, yeah, the front makes a lot more sense. It's when I'm walking by anyway. And you're like, cool. That's where I'm gonna do a door now. But you've gotta, you've gotta help them. They're not gonna try to break into the building on their own. Right? If there's no, if there's no easy door, they're gonna walk to the next place. That is, you know. So that's, that's sort of some ways to maybe connect the two. 'cause you've got a lot of puzzle pieces. It's just connecting them so that you can see the picture that might be there. Right. And being willing to be like, Hey, this is just the most current truth. It doesn't mean it's gonna work. It's just, here's what I currently think. Then you get feedback from the market and then you adjust accordingly. You know, um, I think that's a, that's a challenge. Most individuals, they decide how things are gonna be and they'll be doggedly pursuing it and they will ignore feedback. And you need the feedback. 'cause your system has to evolve. And it's the only way a system can evolve is when it gets feedback and it, and it's willing to, to acknowledge that.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I've learned that recently. I've been, uh, getting a bunch of leads for my friend's company does third party logistics in China. And, uh, he's got a software and I've been learning how to use the software and, and as I onboard each new client, they each have new questions. And so I'm like having them share their screen with me and I'm running through everything with them. And like, oh, but what about this? What about this, what about this? And I was like, Hey, so, so now I can go to him and I can go, Hey. They're like, oh, what's this? You know, how do I answer this question? Or, you know, uh, what about this feature? Why, you know, they want to know about it. And so, um. It's helping him because I'm bringing feedback from people that he would never talk to. 'cause he is busy running the company where they're happy. Because I get to talk to the founder of the company 'cause he is an old friend of mine. Yeah. So I get direct access to give them what they need so that they wanna be, I. You know, they want to use it. So yeah, I, I'm a firm believer in that and, and I was hoping to be able to do that with my software company. So luckily I get to do that now, but I don't have the problem of having to manage the development of the software.

Chris Mercer: Exactly. Exactly right. You've solved the problem in a better way that actually gives you problems you want to solve, right. As opposed to these problems you don't wanna solve. So that's, that's, I love that. Yeah. And, and that, and that particular tool could be a sponsor of the podcast, right? You might mention it just a few times just to offer referrals or something. There's, there's ways that, and now that just pings more into, oh, if I'm a, if a named cash store owner and I've got these challenges, why would I not want this tool? You know? So now again, the podcast is something that's useful and helpful for me as you're going. Sure.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. The currently, you can't register directly on the website, so I have to give people the link to register. So, um, and this is to

Chris Mercer: register for the software itself or?

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah, so the software, you, you can do sourcing requests, purchase management, uh, you can store all of your like items inventory there. Uh, he has a warehouse in China so you can do, uh, storage and packing and yeah, I love that fulfillment and shipping. So that's like one of the core things that I'm working with for brands. So like, if, if it's a larger brand, let's figure like high seven figure, low eight figures. And, and our, uh, I'll look to renegotiate their cost. But if it's a smaller brand, I'll look to just move them onto his system so that he can do all of the fulfillments and everything because it, you know, the chance of me renegotiating something. 'cause like my model is, oh, if I renegotiate your costs, you'll gimme 50% of the savings over the next year. But if you're buying less than like a million dollars a year from the factory, I'm probably not gonna be able to negotiate the price down enough that the commission is sexy enough for me to like follow up with you every month. Right. But if you're, you know, if you're buying a million dollars or two, three, $4 million of product and I save you half a million to a million dollars, like yeah, you better believe I'm gonna be on you for that.

Chris Mercer: It's a good deal for everybody. Yeah. Yep.

Sean Weisbrot: Right. So, but like if you know, but if you're spending a hundred thousand or 200,000 a year and we save you a few percent, like it's just not worth it for me. I'd rather just have them manage it and just not charge the client for the savings. So that's really like a larger. For, for larger clients so that I get dirty, you know, get my hands dirty myself.

Chris Mercer: Yeah. So

Sean Weisbrot: then you can throw up a Google

Chris Mercer: form, have 'em fill out an application to get the link right, to get interest to it, to get an invite link to the software. But in that application process, you've now got a little bit more information. Are you doing over a million a year? If so, hey, here's where this is gonna go. And it's like, let's jump on a call and I'll walk you through how to do everything. And meanwhile, you've got a prospect that you can actually talk to. Yeah, okay. How are you planning to use the software? Blah, blah, blah. Well, actually, it might be better if you had a human. Here's why. Versus somebody who's sub a million, you're like, cool, here's, you know, I'll send you the link in 48 hours, or whatever it is, you know? So I think there's some pretty cool ways you could do that. Where you could, there's a, there's a way in, you're putting a door in your building, right? So they can get into the brand and engage with the brand a little bit. It's quick and easy 'cause you just do a Google form if you want it. You know, and then just throw a short link to it, um, so that people can, can get into it. And you got momentum. And that's the trick. That's how to get unstuck is what's the easiest possible, fastest way for me to get some momentum to see if this is a thing or not. And that's, I think, goes back to like the, you know, I'm, I'm not worried about that. One of the things I, I've learned is it's if you're gonna work or it's not

Sean Weisbrot: right,

Chris Mercer: but it'll be quick no matter what.

Sean Weisbrot: I already have leads, like I'm currently onboarding five clients to software like right now.

Chris Mercer: Oh, that's great. Yeah. And I have

Sean Weisbrot: another 10 behind them that I'm like, waiting to book calls with me. So like, I'm not worried about leads. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm, I'm like, I, I have a, an Excel spreadsheet that I manage all of this and it's, it's already at a point, like I've only started promoting in like the last five weeks, and I'm already at a point where I'm like, I may need to hire someone. To like help me manage all of the leads. There you go. Yeah. So yeah, leads isn't a problem. It's just making it more standard. So like I have a Calendly and I have that form. Instead of using a Google form, I have that form baked into the Calendly. So they fill in that information as they're booking the call. Um, but oftentimes right now I'm getting people referring to me by email or by WhatsApp, or I'm finding people directly having a very short, like, cold dm or like, they'll, like a, like they'll come to me in dms. Mm-hmm. And then, Hey, this sounds great. Why don't you book a call and we can talk about it in detail. So, yeah, the, the lead to funnel all of that is, is great. The offer is very simple, straightforward. I'm gonna, you know, reduce your cost, lower your overhead, simplify your supply chain. So, yeah, it's, it's pretty

Chris Mercer: straightforward. Yeah. And if, and if you're, yeah, if you're stuck with leads, that's awesome. How would you use the, the podcast? Would you use the podcast then to help out with that at all, or,

Sean Weisbrot: well, it would be nice for the podcast to be able to generate more leads. 'cause then I can hire people and those people can manage, you know, like getting them onto the different systems. So it's just about scaling the, the, the size of it. Um, but even without the podcast, I already have a significant number of leads. It's. So, yeah, I'm not, it, it would be nice for the podcast to connect, but it's not necessary. Yeah. But it would be nice. Yeah,

Chris Mercer: yeah. Exactly. Yep.

Sean Weisbrot: So, you know, having them sponsor and, and having all this, yeah. Like it makes total sense. I get it. We're coming close to the end here. Let's ask you your final question. The most important one, I think of all of them is, what's the most important thing that you've learned in life so far?

Chris Mercer: The most important thing that I have learned in life, um, is. To always remember, and this is a lesson I think I've learned over and over again, which is sometimes the best lessons are the ones you forget and have to learn at a higher level later. Um, but it's just, I could be wrong. It's to never have 100% certainty. There is no such thing. There's just probabilities. So no matter what, and I, and I talk to my team about this all the time, I'm like, there's a, and I know there's entrepreneurs that have opposite issues where they might say something and it's like, oh, we're gonna go do this. And the whole team's like, okay, we're gonna do it. That's fine. Let's just go do it. And nobody questions anything. And I have spent years working with my team to make sure that they know I could be wrong. And if they think I am wrong, they need to push back. Because I might very well 'cause I present certain all the time, right? But in my head I know I'm not. I'm just the based on what I currently know, here's what I'm gonna do. And I have certainty in the moment that I'm gonna take that action. But I know there's only a probability of success. It might be a high probability of success in my head. But it doesn't mean I'm right. Right. It could be that even if I'm 99.9% sure there's that 0.01% chance I'm wrong. Right. And that's where everything craters is just not paying attention to that. So I'll tell my team, like, I'm gonna point and just like, Hey, we're gonna go jump off that cliff. I need you to say, uh, just so you know, that's a cliff and there's nothing there. Are you sure you want us to jump off the cliff? Right. And I'm, and I tell 'em all the time. I'm gonna say two things to you. One is, oh, sorry. I meant go over there. Right? Go the other way. That was my fault. I was going too fast. Or I'm gonna say yes, there is, I put a net down there. Plus everyone's got parachutes and there's a whole stairs that you don't see yet, you know, and, but I will explain it better. But either way, I need them to come back and be like, Hey, are you, are you okay with this? If I, if I constantly in my head, if I ever believe that I'm 100% right, that's almost always the thing that will cause the, the log jams and the, the mental lockups, because I am refusing to take advice because I know I'm right. So why do I need the advice? Even if people come to me, I won't hear it. I might be exposed to it, but I won't let it in. And I'll constantly come up with Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but yeah. But yeah, but yeah, but, and it gets, that's how you defend against it, as opposed to going Yeah, maybe. Right. Maybe, um, I, I, I might, I might do that tomorrow. Right now I'm gonna do this, but maybe, and then we'll see. And being open to that feedback so that I might be wrong, and that, that has helped me in life in more ways, not just in business, but in personal relationships in my marriage with my wife, right. Um, being willing to be like, I could be wrong about this. Um, you know, even if we're in a fight, you know, with, with, you know, with my wife and I, we have these, you know, these arguments over something and I think she should be doing da da da dah. In my back of my head, I will go, okay, wait, but I could be wrong. About that. Maybe she does get what I'm trying to say and she's just not using the words that I think she should be using. But maybe I'm wrong about the words she should be using. And let me just, lemme just listen for does she get it? And it sounds like all of a sudden it's like, oh no, she does. You know, I'm like, oh, okay. If I was never willing to go, like, I'm wrong. I would never be willing to look at that. You know, and, and so there's little, little aspects of that, but that overall lesson of, I could be wrong about this, even though I think I'm right, I could be wrong, and that's okay. If I am, you know, I'm open to it.