How to Succeed in AI: The Secret is Being Less Lazy Than Everyone Else

Sean Weisbrot: Sze Wong, a technical CEO, is the chairman of Zion, the executive director of Montessori pod, and the co-founder and general partner of Zenith Venture Studios. In this conversation with Z, we talk about what it was like growing up in Hong Kong, moving to the us starting his first company, having that company not succeed, but then trying again and trying again and growing it and growing it. And I. What it's like having run the company and how he's trying to study relevant as he gets older and. So much more. This is very much a founder journey and psychology based episodes. So if you like these episodes, please listen in. You have a lot to learn. What was it like moving to the US as someone who had spent your entire life in Hong Kong?

Sze Wong: um, cultural shock. Um, like I, I, I talk about this, uh, a lot when I first came here. I call mom, I call home and I tell mom like, you know what, mom? McDonald's here is an entire building. Like, can you, can you imagine like McDonald's being a single, like, single building? It's, it's amazing. It's, it's very different, right. Um. So that's, that's a cultural shock. And then I got thrown into a very different education system growing up in Hong Kong. It's an Asian, um, education system. It's very different than here. I somehow found myself thriving in this a little bit more free.

Sean Weisbrot: My fiance came to visit the US for the first time in March, and one of the things that shocked her was the drive through. She was like, this is amazing. She's like, who are you talking to? Is it a robot? Like, is it an ai? Like, what's going on? And I was like, no, it's a human. They're like, they have a camera. They can see me. Right? I explained what a drive through was as we were going through it, and she was just mesmerized. You know, vie Vietnam is. It has its high tech areas, but like a lot of cultures don't have this concept of a drive-through. I remember in mainland China that I wasn't, I'm not sure if it was McDonald's or Burger King or KFC, but like one of these three companies opened a drive-through and I think it was Beijing and the people were taking, they're going through the car, uh, going through the drive through, ordering the food, then going and parking. In the parking lot and walking in and sitting down at a table and eating. So they had to literally educate the local people how to use a drive-through correctly based on the American concept of what a drive-through should be, because they just didn't understand what to do with the thing. I also experienced a tremendous amount of culture shock. Moving from Florida to Wuhan of all places at the time in 2008 was completely. Ridiculously alien for me, especially because no one spoke English except for like a few people that I happened to run into and like coworkers, but like everyone else was purely Mandarin and, uh, at least you came to the US knowing English. I, I assume because in Hong Kong. Well, knowing

Sze Wong: a bit. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's, I'm not completely ignorant, but, um, it's not good. Um, I remember, I mean, it was talking about drive through Every time when I, when I first came here, every time I went into the drive-thru have to practice in my head like, what am I going to say? Okay, this is how I'm gonna say it. Because I typically cannot understand what they, what they say back to me. So I need to make sure I'm saying everything that everything I need, and I just say yes. And then whatever they say, I typically don't understand. It's like, do you want, do you want sauce with that? Yes. I have no idea what that means.

Sean Weisbrot: What made you wanna become an entrepreneur? Was it living in the US or was there some part of your life in Hong Kong that kind of gave you that spark before you came?

Sze Wong: I started my first company, um, a year before I graduated from college. So what sparked that, I think is the. Is the, is the thinking that I don't want to follow. I, I never want to follow. Um, I love the thought of leading. So in high school, I, I'm not, I mean, in Hong Kong, I mean, so, so I talk about, a little bit about the cultural shock. Talk about a lot, a little bit about education system. So in Hong Kong, I wasn't a great, like the top student. I mean, I, I wasn't like straight A type student. Um, but I still want to lead on things that I could, I think. The desire to not follow, which translated the desire to want to lead. I mean, drive me to, to, um. To entrepreneurship.

Sean Weisbrot: How did your family take it when you told them that you wanted to start a business?

Sze Wong: I mean, they didn't know for a long time. Like, so I, I, I started first gig, like, like I said before I graduate. So at that time they didn't make anything of it. 'cause it's, it's, it's nothing. I, I, I still will graduate. If, if at the time I told them I, I'll drop out and they'll freak out. Right. But I didn't, I say I, I'll just do this and then. They thought it was a hobby. And then the next gig was I started a training school, um, at the time around, around year 2000, teaching Java at the time. I mean, if, if for whoever was there, Java was a big deal. Um, and um, and at that time I still have a full-time job. So like that was quite crazy when I, when I was building my training school, I had a full-time job and then teaching seven days a week. Um. I think it's not until I started, uh, this company, Zion Software Building iPhone builder, that my fam, my, my, my parents end up knowing that like, it, it's a big deal. I'm doing it at the time I married. I mean, it's more like, more like my, my, um, my wife was keep asking like, are you sure you want to do this? Like. She observed me like being struggling. It's hard, right? Because, and at the time I, I told her, I mean, if this fail, I'll go back to doing less and making more. I mean, like, to me that's like, okay, well why wouldn't I do this? Like if it fails, I'll go back to coding, doing consulting. That is doing less and, and getting paid more. So I'm gonna take a chance and then if it does, if it doesn't work, then I'll, I'll go back on doing development just like every other firm.

Sean Weisbrot: What was the moment that you realized you had to quit your job

Sze Wong: in training school? I had my full-time job, um, doing software development and then at night, um, then at night build training school. That is the, the craziest time. Um, and then the training school failed. And, and that's another story that I, I learned basic accounting at the time. Money comes in and money goes out, and if comes in is not. Enough, you lose money. Right? So somehow I didn't know. Now I can joke about it. Um, lost money, had to close, had to like basically pack up overnight. Um, and then the next morning I went and talked to the landlord and say, Hey, I packed up so you can release me or not. If you don't release me from the lease, I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to declare bankruptcy, so please. Release me from, from the, from the lease. So that failed. And then I went back to full-time working for somebody at the time. Um, I thought I'm done. I thought I, I actually committed to myself. Like I'm, I'm not made out. I, I, I'm not made out to be in the business world. Um, and that's okay. I've tried it and I'll just work for somebody. Um, that was actually a pretty good job. I found a pretty good employer. Supportive. Um, and I thought to myself, I, I'll just, I'll just work. And, and, um, a year into that is when the age came back and I was like, I, I, I can't stay here forever. Um, and then I left to do consulting. So now, even though that was, that was like starting on my own, um. Without a full-time job, but consulting at the time. I mean for a long time, being a software develop developer is like this, the superpower, you can get a job anywhere. Um, and I think, like to answer your question, I will, I will fast forward to when I have this mobile app that is starting to gain traction. That I have to close down my consulting business. Um, that was a big, like, that was a big bet. I, I closed down at the time, just right before we start the, I start the mobile app, we have 15 people, um, working, working, working for me. So I was making okay money, um, in consulting and, but I realized mobile app is, is the future. I have to. I have to quit that. And what makes me want to quit is the desire to do something that's more scalable. And then, um, and then we went on money for two years in a row. I have to borrow money, uh, for Christmas for two years in a row.

Sean Weisbrot: I had a consulting business. I started a tech company. I shut down the consulting company, took profit. I now had no new revenue, no income. I was investing from the money from the profit that I had saved and slowly descended into anxiety and panic attacks over several years, building that stupid company. Looking back, I felt the smarter thing to do was to try to figure out how to keep the consulting business going. So that revenue could have fueled or profit from, that could have fueled the tech company and paid myself money to live on so that I wouldn't have had the anxiety and panic attacks because I would still be having money coming in. And if the tech company failed, I still had another business to go back to.

Sze Wong: So this was like Christmas of 2009. Then when I, when, when I, I mean my partner and I was just trying everything, we just felt like mobile is, is it? At the time, I mean, I, I told a story that, um, in the summer of 2008, a a, a architect sitting next to me, I'm, I'm a technical architect, so the guy was like, well, I make a tic tac toe game, this stupid tic-tac toe game, not even an app store. App store hasn't come out yet this summer of 2008. And he said, I make more money in three weeks than sitting here in three months. So I'm quitting. You should do, this is our eighties. We miss our eighties, right? We're, we just miss our eighties growing up. But we heard about the eighties. This is our eighties. Go, go, go do something. And then I, I, I, um, I bought my first Mac, um, that, that weekend. And so between then two. Mid 2009, I basically closed down the, the, the consulting business. Now, looking back now, I was lucky enough, well, I went, went like we had no money in 2009. In 2010. So again, borrow money to, to, to get over a Christmas, two years in a row. Um, if I were to do that again. So the question has to be, if I were to do that again, knowing what I know right now, of course I would do the same thing. But if I were to do that again, not knowing what I know, I probably would shake it out a bit. Like with, like, if I'm a bit older, I would shake it out a bit, but I mean, I wouldn't, I would not suggest someone play it safe. Um. Don't go crazy, right? So my advice always is like, you shouldn't go crazy, but you should take, take some risks. I mean, a lot of things don't come out if you are playing it way too safe. That's, that's where I'm at right now. I still will take risks right now. Like I'm, I'm in my fifties. I realize I'm getting older. I realize I can't outsmart people like yourself and other young people around me. So I need to take risks. I need to learn to plan for the next decade or two. So I wouldn't, I mean, it's okay. I mean, I, I hope you learn what you've learned. Maybe that's a, that's a, maybe you wish it happened differently. Um, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't make you who you are if you didn't go through those struggle. Absolutely.

Sean Weisbrot: At the same time, if I were to replay that, even though I wouldn't be who I am today, which I like who I am, I also would've had a hell of a lot more money if I didn't start that damn company.

Sze Wong: I could have exited much earlier and then had a lot more money, which I still struggle and I have to continue to remind myself like. Yeah, but what's past his past? Just look forward. So I'm, I'm, I'm trying to remind myself of that.

Sean Weisbrot: Um, yeah, so well, let's, let's talk about that. 'cause I am, I'm not aware of that situation and it seems like you've got some work to do. So I'm curious, maybe I can help you there. I. So you have this app and you, you exited the app. What was the app about? When, why did you think you could have made more by exiting earlier?

Sze Wong: Right. I haven't, haven't exit yet. Uh, I still, I still have it. The business is still running. I. It's profitable, it's, it, it, it's, it's, it's good, but it is tired, right? So like, time has changed, right? I launched this thing, this little, this little app. Um, and I remember, uh, in 2009 I made a presentation in a local meetup. I call this the million dollar app because, um. The week prior, somebody made a presentation, it's called it a thousand dollar app. Like they make an app and sell it for a thousand dollar right on, on the app store. And it was a big deal, a thousand dollar app. And I said, this is a million dollar app. Um, so I, so I, so I did this, um, this app. What, what it does is a simple, it is digital form. Extremely simple. It makes forms, um, people use paper form. You just, you just. We, we recreate those forms on, on mobile, and that's the business that's boring business problems. Um, but guess what? It's, a lot of people have that problem, especially the early days. So we sat on, um, we sat on App store, especially the iPad app store on the business, um, business section. Of the iPad App store first page for a few months because there was none. There was none, no, no business apps on the iPad store. Um, I still remember in the early days, like, um, people was like, what? Why you make this on iOS? Makes no sense. It should be on, on Blackberry every business app. It's on Blackberry. Now remember, like you, it's it's, it's 2009 and 2010. Okay? So like time is very different now. Fast forward time is very different now. So the prime time to exit was when we were at our peak now. But when you are, you don't know. You never know where your peak is, right? So when you are climbing, you felt like you can go 10 times higher. Um. But, uh, looking back now, I know where the peak was and I didn't nix it at that time. So

Sean Weisbrot: when was the peak?

Sze Wong: Um, that was about 2016 ish.

Sean Weisbrot: Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far, and I hope you're loving it. And if you are. I would love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work and every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love so that we can bring you something amazing. And every week we're trying really hard to get better guests that have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your. Subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a, like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time, these offices, like what's, what's the use case?

Sze Wong: Yeah. The most used case, it's, it is what, what I'll tell people is industrial inspection. So think something big, um, like, like factories, like rows, like. Oil pipeline, something huge. And then they need to go inspect those, um, those locations, uh, equipments oil pipeline. So we essentially do two things. We count things and we check things, um, and, uh, check checking. Its inspection. So we, we were lucky enough like to, to, to get some big contracts from big companies, big engineering companies. We were in, um, like airline food inspection. So you, you would have eaten food that our product inspected. Uh, we were in one of the biggest, um, airline food inspection, I mean airline food company. And we helped them like upgrade, um, modernize their, their inspection project. So yeah, so around 2005, six, um, that's. That's the peak. Um, I should have gave up at that time, but I didn't. So now I live with like, what could have happened. Did you ever have

Sean Weisbrot: an acquisition offer?

Sze Wong: Yeah. Yeah,

Sean Weisbrot: mainly. And, and what made you think it was better to keep going? Because you said that you, you, you don't know in the moment.

Sze Wong: This goes back to, I don't want, I don't like the, I don't like to well traveled road. Um. I, I, it's like I'm, I'm a perpetual teenager. Whatever elders like advisors told me to do, I was like, you exited a hundred million. I, I I'm not going. Um, something like that. So that is one, right. One side of that, um, another side is I don't, at the time I told myself, I don't care about exiting. I don't care about, there's like many zeros in my bank account. I care about my team. I. I care about just having fun with the team. Now, looking back, of course, I of course, more zeros in the bank account is better than, um, better than current. Um, but, and, um, but I didn't know then and, and what draw Yeah. Again, to answer your question, it's about, it's the same kind of personality that drove me to entrepreneurship in the first place. That drove me to like, um, don't. Don't like to listen to, um, to advise. And, um, yeah, so do I regret that? I regret that every single day, but I, I remind myself like I'm still doing. Okay. So do you still get acquisition offers? Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: All the time. And it's still, and those are still not, they're not worth it now.

Sze Wong: I'm much more open nowadays, so, um. So we, we have a plan to execute something. Of course, I cannot say it in public, but, um, those things continue to happen. I mean, but, and, and you have to be open, like my advisor, although I keep saying I don't listen to advisor, I have to advisors that they're, they're, they're, they're great enough to allow me to always not listen to them and still would advise me. And one of them keeps saying, well, you, you need to keep those people around you. It's like. I mean, when, when, when they keep calling, um, well, they do co calling, right? Co emailing. Well, you just answer them. And from time to time, you, you, you got, you got enough of people swimming around you. You can make a decision.

Sean Weisbrot: You can get them to bid, make a bidding war.

Sze Wong: That could be what we end up doing. Do you mind saying what

Sean Weisbrot: the most outrageous offer was?

Sze Wong: At one point in time there was, um, about $50 million. And, um, and I chicken out, like I I chicken out. Um, I blame it on my, my dad getting, getting sick at the time, right? Right now, like I have an official storyline that I tell myself at the time my dad was sick. So I came back home and I, and I called the agent. I was like, let's, let's just kill it. I don't want to deal with it. Um, but in fact I just, I was just afraid. Um, I didn't know what to expect. Um. I just caught it off.

Sean Weisbrot: Afraid of what? Don't

Sze Wong: know. Afraid of the unknown.

Sean Weisbrot: Afraid of being able to say, I don't need to work ever again if I don't want to. I'm in my fifties. I'm older, and

Sze Wong: I, I am very intentional to try to change my identity now. Like the reason I didn't want to take anything, change anything is because I was still so tied to my identity of being a tech, CEO. I was afraid, um, what am I afraid of? Like being, having a lot of money and nothing to do. Of course not. But yeah, at the time it's very different, right? Looking back, like from a third person perspective, it's very different than when you're in it, um, rollercoaster, right? Every morning I'll, I'll, I'll wake up having a different thoughts.

Sean Weisbrot: And this business, did you have any other partners?

Sze Wong: I mean, two other, they've since retired. Happily ever after.

Sean Weisbrot: And you, so you bought out their equity,

Sze Wong: right.

Sean Weisbrot: If you had sold that company for $50 million, it would be fair to say that before taxes you'd probably walk away with 10 to 15? Sure. Come like that. Did they not try to convince you that it was time to sell the, these other partners?

Sze Wong: Yeah, at the time they retire already

Sean Weisbrot: based on how much the company generates a year now. In the long run, it's like you're getting that money, but you're getting it slower over time, which means you're less likely to make stupid decisions. Yes. Right. Because if you, if you get a big check, it's easy to blow that money. Like if you look at a lot of. Uh, athletes, they, you know, let's say you sign a hundred million dollar contract, and let's say you've never had access to that kind of money before, right? So the, let's say a hundred over five years, you're making 20 pre, uh, let's say you have an agent, so the agent's getting a few million, right? So let's say 15 million after tax or, or 13 million after tax. Like the chances of blowing all of that money is pretty good. But if you're getting half a million or a million a year, over 20 years, 30 years, like. The chances of you blowing it is much lower. 'cause you learn to get comfortable with that number. Exactly.

Sze Wong: I mean, I, right now I felt, I felt I, um, was kind of lucky, I would say, um, that I gained my wealth slowly. Um, so our lifestyle, me and my wife's lifestyle stay at. Roughly $200,000 a year type of lifestyle and had we had tons of millions, we may get a much bigger house, buy an island or whatever, right? Buy a 7 47. I always talk about like people ask like, do you have money? No, I can't afford a 7 47, so I don't have money.

Sean Weisbrot: Is there anything I haven't asked that you'd want to touch upon?

Sze Wong: I've been tied up in my identity as being a tech CEO, um, as I plan the next decade, I want to, I wanna create a, a way where I can work until my nineties. So I probably am not going to be a tech CEO in my 90, although maybe someone could, I cannot.

Sean Weisbrot: Warren Buffet was, is working into his nineties. Why can't you? If you like it. But he's not a tech CEO, right? He, no, but what he does is very technical. He's very financial based. He's constantly in the charts.

Sze Wong: So I want to learn more, um, on, on, on maybe that front too, right? So learning how to invest, how to be, um, how to be an angel investor, how to be venture investing, how to help out other people. Um. In my own way, right? Like I said, I, I try to not follow other, other people's footstep. Um, so that is what I'm going to work on in the, in the next decade or two.

Sean Weisbrot: I look at the future and I find myself scared about how to remain relevant. Because I'm so young and we're still at the, for, well young, I'm almost 40, but I, I'm young enough that everything is already completely upending and I feel like it's going to be upended many more times in the next 30 or 40 years. And, and I, I like to think I have a. At least a loose idea of what I think is going to happen. But then something happens and throws a wrench in my ideas and I go, damn, I have no idea what's gonna happen.

Sze Wong: Like every, everybody's world is not the world, right? You, everybody's world is 150 people. You like, you interact with 150 people. That's your world. If you can shape that, you, you have tremendous control. And within that 150 people, if you can help, if you can solve 10% of of their problems. Then you have a business. And, um, I mean, I know like, it is scary. I mean, I'm, I'm as scared. I mean, I, I wake up every morning and say, oh my God, there's a new AI tool that just pop up and I don't know anything about. Right. So I need to learn. Right. Um, but I always tell you, I, I have young developer come to me like they, they cannot keep up. So, so I asked, well, so if you feel like you cannot keep up, what would you do? Like they, they, well, I can't keep up. I don't know what to do. Like. So, yes. You cannot keep up. Well, not keeping up. It's a, it's a fact. It's like you cannot get away from that. You cannot, you will never be able to give up. So what you do matters and what you do should be don't give up. And today, so I, I talk about, like, I start building iOS app in 2000, 2008, 2009, right? I remember. Um, at the end of 2009, uh, people call, like agents will call and say how much experience you have building iOS app. And I said as much experience as anybody could have because it's brand new. So that is the same thing today. And Will, it will always be like that. There will always be something that is so new that if you get into it. You are the top whatever, a hundred people. A thousand people like today. So I'm now teaching vibe coding, right? So Vibe coding didn't exist a year ago. One year ago. Nobody even like, let's term what's coin like was three months ago. Um, and now becomes a thing. So if you learn that now, I just learned that. Okay. So, so can you, you're, you're, you're, you're younger than me. You're better than me. Everybody around me is technically by definition. If you're younger, you're a better version of me. 'cause you're, you're newer generation, okay? We talk like tech. When you're younger, you're the new generation of the older generation, right? So by definition you're better, you can learn. And if you just put yourself there, you are already better. Um, and that fear is around, and that's not going away. I mean, that fear. Will be around that. Um, future will will change, but count on other people being lazier than you are. You can count on that. There are a lot of lazy people, so just, just, just go do it. You'll be, you'll be ahead of a lot of people.