Are Americans Only Entrepreneurs Out of Financial Desperation?

Sean Weisbrot: Juha Berghall is the co-founder and CEO of one io, the first and only integration service that runs it, service integrations on the cloud. In this conversation, we talk about education in the US versus Finland. Whether the Finnish education system is set up to create she or entrepreneurs based on the fact that they have a really interesting and unique way of. Viewing education. We talk about the differences in socialism and capitalism and their roles in creating entrepreneurs. I hope you enjoy this episode with Juha. Let's get to it. So Juha, I've interviewed a few people from Finland before, and despite the extreme temperature and uh, lack of sun for long periods of time, you guys seem to be quite happy. Why is that?

Juha Berghäll: Well, I guess that it's, um. It's a sort of an attitude that, um, things have, um, that we have learned to cope with ourselves, by ourselves here, up in the north. And, um, sort of, um, it's just fine with things in life as of today. I guess that's, that's where it's coming from. So we are not like super, um, like people are not. Super. Like saying out loud, positive things because something bad, bad might happen. So we are just fine as of today, happy with what we got.

Sean Weisbrot: So Finns try to live in the present, you mean?

Juha Berghäll: Sort of, yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: Okay. I've done some research on the education and many years ago when I was living in China, I was an HR manager. For a private school, and I insisted on hiring people that had master's degrees in education, which I got one or two of them of the five that I hired. And I tried so hard to hire someone from Finland because from my experience or from my, my research, Finland has one of the best education systems in the world. And so I really wanted to have that influence in the school, but I wasn't able to hire anyone, although I did try very hard. And I did interview a few people. What is it about the Finnish attitude that enables this kind of fantastic education system? And if, if you don't mind, explain kind of, uh, if, do you understand the difference between like, I guess, uh, an American education and a Finnish education or, or Western kind of what makes a difference?

Juha Berghäll: Yeah. Well, um, I guess that, um, this is one of. Back in the day, um, when we need to re-built society, everything is based on, everything's based on like equality so that all the people here have a starting are on the same level. So as, as you might might know, we don't have this history of glass society, like likes of, you know, uk, Sweden, all these like, so we don't have that. So it's super equal. Um, and the schooling system is free. Or prepaid through taxation. So we are prepaid country in that sense that, um, all the people, all the kids, they go to the same school. There's no private, hardly any private schools. So most of the kids are going the same school, which means, um, on a kind of a micro level, uh, in a classroom, you are on the same level regardless of your background. Of your parents being super rich or poor, you are in the same room with everybody. So that's where you learn to cope with different kind of, uh, kind of, um, people with different backgrounds, I guess. And then of course the, the education system, when it comes to teachers, uh, teachers are, they all have master's degree, so you don't get into the teaching without having the ma master master's degree. So it's six, six years education.

Sean Weisbrot: What I heard was that the education system was designed, and correct me if I'm wrong, I guess like the kids start later in the day, but they end later in the day. The purpose being to give them the time to sleep at the right hours so that they wake up. At a time where when they start their schooling, their brains are actually ready to receive information and process it. 'cause like in America, the kids go to school I think a bit early, um, and they're, they're just like, exhausted

Juha Berghäll: free. We start, start normal like eight, nine, but school days are not that long. So in the, like the earliest stages in, in the like school and it's like midday. Something like that. So it's not that long. So you don't, like, you don't have to spend the whole day there and maybe that helps you to, to learn. Hmm.

Sean Weisbrot: I also heard that the focus was on projects, like giving kids the skills to create things.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah. Well I guess that the, one of the things that the, uh, Finn Schooling System has, has, it's also has a little bit of downside, is that, um. It's not something that teachers are just, you know, in the front of the class pushing stuff to the kids so that they're involved more in the, in the kind of learning and experiencing things. Not just, you know, listening to teaching teacher to, you know, explain things in front. So maybe that's, that's what you're referring about the projects. But it's a, it's a kind of a, we have quite, quite, um, sophisticated methods that are used and there has been a lot of studies about how, uh, kids in different ages learn which is the best way to learn. So I, I guess that that's one of the things that have been, you've been able to implement, um, downside of, of, um, teacher being. I don't, I guess not in the position of traditional teacher is of course, that you have some challenges in the classroom. So there is like the authority of the teacher. It might not be, um, you know, I. Sufficient.

Sean Weisbrot: But I feel like even with that perception of having less authority, that there might be less problems in the average classroom in Finland than in a country like the U in a public school in the US because there's more of a homogenous society and because, yeah, so like for example, there's. I came across when I was in college. I was shadowing, uh, some counselors, guidance counselors, speech, a speech pathologist, um, occupational therapist because of my degree in psychology. So they, they wanted me to see what it was like to work in a public school system, and I got to work with. Uh, kids in primary school. Mm-hmm. And they stuck me with the kid, stuck is the wrong word. That's not fair. They paired me with kids who came from homes that were challenging for them to navigate. And so I got to see firsthand what it was like for the kids. And the kids would have private time to talk with me and tell me what's going on in their life and kind of help give them an emotional outlet. And, and my goal was also to give them an opportunity to play while they were talking with me so that they would be able to express themselves. Mm-hmm. In a way that. Could allow them to feel better, you know? 'cause sometimes these kids have, uh, some sort of violence in them that they, they have, it's harder for them to control their emotions because they're not used to seeing emotions being controlled at home, unfortunately. Um, so I got, so from my experience, I got to see. Some of the issues that, uh, kids might experience. And I feel like when that's in your classroom, it's very difficult. It could be very disruptive because the kids just aren't aware and they might get violent with their classmates because they just, that's what they see and so they emulate that. And so, um, I feel like in Finland maybe that doesn't happen so much. I could be wrong.

Juha Berghäll: Well. Not so much. I, I guess that, um, since society in general is on relatively good level, although in recent years we have had more and more like these sort of issues that I, I, I think the schooling system is not ready to cope with. So. There are a lot of like things that have been like changed in the schooling system lately, meaning that the bigger glass glasses so that they could have like 40 people in the same glass or something like that. Wow. So when there is this distraction and things like that. So it really culminates in the classroom. So I guess that that's one of the things that at least it has been discussed. And actually my wife works, she works in school and um. Like she says that especially after the COVID, they see a lot of, a lot of these kind of new kind of issues with the kids who, who couldn't sort of, especially in the early, early teen teenage, um, they kind of lost couple of years of developing their, their, uh, sort of, um, um, social skills skills. Social skills and stuff like that. So maybe we see some

Sean Weisbrot: consequences outta that.

Juha Berghäll: Hmm,

Sean Weisbrot: for sure. So do you feel like the Finnish education system promotes creativity, imagination and this kind of ability to be an entrepreneur? Or would you say it's more in line with like creating a society of people that just kind of do what they're told? 'cause this is a big problem in America. We, we call, uh, someone I've heard. Some people say, uh, the word sheeple, so, uh, you know, sheep, people, sheeple. Mm-hmm. It feels like the AM American education system was created in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution era and hasn't been changed despite the fact that our society has evolved beyond it. And as a result, the kids are taught to do what you're told. Show up at this time. 'cause I told you to. Show up at that time or leave at this time because I told you to, you can't go to the bathroom unless you raise your hand and ask for permission. Right. It's designed to teach you to do what you're told and to be a good little robot. Mm-hmm. And my hope is that, or my, my and, and yet, despite all that, Americans grow up to be very independent, very creative, very imaginative, and very entrepreneurial. Because capitalism. Do you think Finland is designed to create entrepreneurs or to create like robots?

Juha Berghäll: Um. I think our, our approach is a little bit different. I, personally, I don't see anything bad with rules and restrictions and boundaries for the kids in certain age. Um, what the whole aim of Finn and Schooling system until people are 15, 16 is that you are pro. The same sort of, uh, not on the highest level, highest performance or the, or the, but it sort of, um, if the, if the grading is from one to 10, the, the objective of the schooling system is that most, it's successful when people are on eight. That's the goal. So it's not aiming to perfection. So if somebody really wants to go. To 10, they must do something themselves. So the school is not aiming for that. So it means that people are coming from the, out, out from the school. It's sort of a similar like, uh, knowledge and know-how and competence and things like that. And then after that, um, they get to choose if they go to high school and then they kind of go to college and things like that. So there's a lot of, um, freedom to choose and that you don't have to worry about. You know, university free of charge. High school is free of charge. You don't have to worry about that. You get to choose, and it's your responsibility at that sense that after the basic school of stuff is given to you, then you get to choose, but you don't have to worry about how much money you have to put in or take student loans and things like that. Right. Don't get excited about America. Yeah. Sort of the freedom in, I guess in in the us even though you are like the brightest mind, you might not end up. In the path of college and university because you don't, you can't afford it. So that's sort of holding people back a little bit.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. I think a lot of the people I've talked to recently that are Gen Z, they look at like, they're, they're like finishing high school now. Some of these guys and they're like, I don't see a reason to go to college because I've got my e-commerce brand, or I've got my digital media marketing agency and I'm making 20, 30, $50,000 a month. What do I need to go to school for?

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So I, I think a lot of people are seeing that college is becoming irrelevant because what you go and you study for four years. You get into a hundred thousand dollars a debt or more, and then you can never pay it back and you'll never earn enough to pay it back in a given year. That's sad. Yeah. Plus, plus the interest and, and you start paying the bills. And then let's say you meet someone and you wanna marry them. Mm-hmm. Alright. The wedding's gonna cost $40,000. The ring's gonna cost another like 10 or 15,000, and then you get into the house. The house is gonna cost you a hundred, 200,000 for a deposit because of the way the housing prices are. And then you're gonna have mortgage at six, seven, 8%. You're gonna pay another few thousand a month to pay for the mortgage and to manage the bills. And then you've, you know, you've got two cars, so you've got the down payments on the two cars, 5,000 each or so, and then you've got a thousand dollars a month for the car insurance and the car payments and the gas. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, and then you want to have kids. The kids are gonna cost 20 or 30,000 each at the hospital, you know, by the time you, you get, you know, two kids, like you're half a million dollars in debt, you know, like, how are you? Like, that's just, how are you supposed to have a life, right? So, mm-hmm. That's one of the reasons why I left America. You know, as soon as I finished college, literally two months after I got my degree, I was gone and I've never moved back. It's been 15 years now, and I know so many people that are trapped, and so I, yeah. I, I'm living in Europe now and I love the fact that people have free healthcare and free education and, and I feel like it's much better quality. And I think a lot of people look down on other, a lot of Americans look down on other countries like, oh, America's the best. America's so great. It's like, yeah, but all these other countries, like people aren't killing themselves. They're not shooting up schools, they're not filing for bankruptcy. Because they have good quality educations provided them by the government. Sure. They might make less money than you, but they don't have to worry about filing for bankruptcy or paying for their doctor bill.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah, I think that's a, that's a really good point. And if you think about the like whole, um, especially in the Nordics where I'd guess that if you take like a really like proper American person, they might see this is almost like a socialist countries like. Everything is covered by state and you're paying a lot of tax. Mm, but in turn you get the, you know, there's less stress about your future. What, what ifs? There are a lot less what ifs. What if something really bad happens? You don't really have to worry about that. Because of the healthcare. If you have kids, if you go to hospital, it, it costs you maybe 50 euros, give birth. So like, yeah, it's prepaid. It's prepaid. But I, I guess that the problem here is that we might end up, and there is some, some kind of, uh, signals already that we might end up in this situation that the tax less tax you get. The more debt you have to take as a state or a country. So it's sort of a how do we, how do we fix this problem of people getting older and then we don't have people paying the tax to keep off the system? So that's a kind of downside of it.

Sean Weisbrot: It is something that I've been watching and it's something that's concerning because population is declining all over the world. Yeah. And as a result, you know, as you said, there will be less young people to pay into these systems to take care of the people who can't work, and eventually the only solution is to raise taxes. Yeah. And people are gonna riot. There, there is no way to solve this besides raising taxes or striking oil or you know, creating some other kind of industry right there. There's just no way. So it's quite concerning what's gonna happen in the future because of that in the next few decades. I. Yeah.

Juha Berghäll: And this is, this is something that is, uh, like this traditional western, northern European countries that we used to this like welfare society approach that everything is given to us. Like we are entitled for these things, which is, I think, one of the biggest issues at the moment as, as we started this discussion about things being entrepreneurs and things like that. So, uh, the reason me being entrepreneur, uh. I believe that we have so much like that the foundation is so safe and sound that we should be able to do more, much more, right? 'cause we don't have to worry about these things. And uh, now the question is that like, going to their, your question about people. The sheep. Like if people don't see it like that, they just feel like that I'm entitled for this because my, my parents made the tax.

Sean Weisbrot: Hey, just gimme 10 seconds of your time. I really appreciate you listening to the episode so far and I hope you're loving it. And if you are, I would. Love to ask you to subscribe to the channel because what we do is a lot of work and every week we bring you a new guest and a new story. And what we do requires so much love so that we can bring you something amazing. And every week we're trying really hard to get better guests. That have better stories and improve our ability to tell their stories. So your subscription lets the algorithm know that what we're doing is fantastic and no commitment. It's free to do. And if you don't like what we're doing later on, you can always unsubscribe. And either way, we would love a like if you don't feel like subscribing at this time. Thank you very much and we'll take you back to the show now.

Juha Berghäll: So I don't really have to work. I just go and get like, the daily allowance from, from the state because I just wanna, you know, do whatever I like. Not to like push anything hard, push. I don't want to push harder because I like it's already paid. Mm. So I think that's one of the biggest challenges that I, I see at the moment. And also the, the sort of the attitude and, um, legislation, taxation, all of those things that when you are taking the risk as an entrepreneur. Um, there's a little bit like that you are, if you fail, you're sort of a second class. Mm. Burning Finland.

Sean Weisbrot: So it's a, it's, yeah, there's a bunch of differences there. So, yeah. Th this is something interesting I've noticed as well, is that I like life in Europe because I can see that people care about the quality of their life and their relationships with other people more than their work. Yeah. And maybe it's because they feel safe on a daily basis, which is such an amazing feeling. But at the same time, they don't. Feel the need to excel above other people. And then you look at the US and I feel like maybe people in America are more entrepreneurial because there's so much in debt that they feel they have no other option but to try to beat everyone else in order to save themselves.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah, that's a good point.

Sean Weisbrot: Like for example, something that makes me push hard is that my dad's a dentist and he can't afford to retire, so I like. I have to make more money so that I can give him money every month for the rest of his life so that he can afford to retire. Yeah, and I can't even afford to do that yet because I feel pressure. I'm like, I need at least half a million to a million a year. To be able to like, have my own life and make my own investments and have my own, you know, wife and kids that I don't have yet. Or, I mean, I was married before, but to have a a, a new wife and, and kids. Yeah. And to be able to take care of my parents. It's like I feel like I need at least half a million to a million. And I'm living in Europe and I know that there's Americans that have this mentality as well. Some millennials are Gen Z and they're like, oh, I need a, I need half a million a year to survive in America. Some people, but then you look at Europeans and they're like, yeah, I make 15,000 a year, and like, I'm cool.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So

Juha Berghäll: one of the things of course is that like, um, you don't really have to worry about that because it's, it's taken care of so that I guess the stress levels are, are lower, but that leads into this like, um, people, as you said, maybe laying low just because they can. So who is then gonna pay for it? It's not gonna happen, right? Like we cannot, like, look at Italy for instance. Their debt is like so huge that it's, it's almost too big to fail. Like Mm. Because of the society doesn't work anymore as, as it, as, as it was designed to, mm.

Sean Weisbrot: There's definitely a lot of differences between what Americans would consider socialist countries and what Europeans would consider socialism. And that's one of the reasons why the US is so anti people having the things they need for a good quality life. Yeah. Because the core concept of capitalism is, hey, you need to be responsible for yourself because nobody's gonna help you. If you don't help yourself, no one's gonna help you. Where in Europe the concept is, Hey, we got you. You're good. And there's actually this, there's approach towards this universal basic income, um, that there's some programs that have been done in Canada and the US and the original idea was if you give people extra money, you're just gonna blow it. They're not gonna do anything. Especially, there was a program that was done with homeless people, I think, in California recently, and they gave them like $500 no questions asked per month for like a year. And at the end of the study they, they made the assumption, some people made an assumption that they were gonna just buy more drugs. But what they found was the people that received the money by the end of the year were an extra 15 or 20% more likely to have stable housing and have money saved and, and looking for work or having a job already. So these people were specifically rebuilding their lives where when you give that money to people who already have jobs and they already have homes and they're already quote, secure, they found a way to. Make improvements to the value of their home or to be able to, um, pay for better education for their kids, or to be able to have better quality food. Instead of eating at McDonald's, they might, you know, buy better food from the grocery store and, and cook cleaner meat. Yeah. And so it's quite obvious, you know, from the, the programs I've seen that have been done so far that I'm giving people a little bit more money, I. Leads to positive results for society. And I feel like if we were to apply that to the idea of let's give you free healthcare, let's give you free education, then people would be in a better mental state. They would have better emotional relationships, they would have better life. The problem with. The US in that regard is that the lobby industries, right? Uh, big tobacco, big, uh, pharmacy, big pharma, whatever their job is to make as much money as possible for the companies they work for. So they have no incentive to lower the cost of medications or the machines that they sell to the hospital companies, et cetera. And the hospitals don't have an incentive to lower their prices. And so a lot like pharmacies, pharmac, pharmaceutical companies, for example. They, they specifically charge more to Americans to cover their ability to offer things for cheaper in other countries. So you might spend $5 for a box of pills or a bottle of pills in Finland for the same thing in America, you'd pay 50. Why? Americans will pay more. They don't have a choice. And so we Amer, well, I don't wanna say we 'cause I don't live in America, but essentially Americans are subsidizing the health and welfare of other countries because, um, when you're in the US money talks. And so if you have the money to lobby, then you will lobby wherein other countries you don't really have this so much, and so people just have better quality of life.

Juha Berghäll: Mm-hmm.

Sean Weisbrot: Which is one of the reasons why I don't wanna live in America. And if I have another, you know, wife and, and have some kids, I don't wanna raise them in America. I don't want them going to American schools. I want them to have the ingenuity and the creativity and the imagination and, and possibly the entrepreneurial spirit if they're, if that's what they want. But I don't want them to grow up in America.

Juha Berghäll: But is it, is it so that this, when you say America, um, because it's a kind of quite a bunch of different states, states that you have there. Mm. So does it apply across the whole America, United States? You know,

Sean Weisbrot: I would say yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's national issues and healthcare is a national issue.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: Insur insurance is a national issue. Um, housing. You know, gas, these, these are things that affect everybody. Mm. Education. Yeah. You know, uh, student loan debt, but it, it's funny interest how it, it causes chaos and creates pain and suffering, but also creates the best countries in the, or the best companies in the world.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah. That's also the, that's the difficult part here. If you think about the European approach, is that we are lagging behind. Us is, is the superpower. When you look at the companies over there, Googles and Microsofts and, and they have Facebook's, they have created amazing platforms. Uh, it's Europe is, we are so far, you know, behind. So that's sort of the downside of how do you, how do you actually explain this?

Sean Weisbrot: There's less, there's less investment going into startups in Europe. Because one, there's less money that's, that's liquid in European economies for that, and Europeans are more conservative and so they're more likely to look at public markets or real estate rather than something that's risky that could lose me my money, for example. Yeah. And so the European startups I talked to look for, to Silicon Valley to get their investment.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: And Silicon Valley, especially if you have

Juha Berghäll: something new. Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: Yeah. And Silicon Valley will look all over the world because Europeans, since they have a lower, uh, not a lower, since they have a different concept of money, they might be able to invest 500,000 in a company and get a 30%, you know, equity. But in an American company, half a million will get 'em 5%. At the same stage or 2%. Yeah, at the same stage. Um, and you, you know, you look at Asia and it's something similar. Just the, the cost of living in those countries compared to the US gives the US an outsized amount of cash to invest in companies that have a lower concept for what their valuation is as well.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So the question is,

Juha Berghäll: how do you balance these things? Like, that's the question. How do you balance these things, like the happiness of the people in general? Growing the economies growing like this? It's a, it's a interesting question.

Sean Weisbrot: I'm not a politician, but I'm sure if I were, I would have a very different view of how things work. It's easy as an outsider to politics to go, oh, well you just do this, this, and this. You don't allow this thing. Yeah. But then, you know, I feel like Obama had like. A specific idea of what he wanted to accomplish. And I think he got into office and was like, oh crap, I'm not gonna be able to do any of that stuff. Um, so I think, I think a lot of people that are well intentioned come to realize very quickly that, uh, their hands are tied by the mechanisms of society and politics and lobbying to prevent too much change because change is scary.

Juha Berghäll: Yeah.

Sean Weisbrot: So from your experience as an entrepreneur living in Finland and I, I guess you've traveled a bit as well, what's the most important thing you've learned in your life so far?

Juha Berghäll: Um, surround yourself with, with, uh, people, with good heart, good intentions, and also, um, I, I strongly believe in giving back.